ex-State Transit Vehicle Transmissions

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

Just a quick question on the topic of State Transit vehicles and their transmissions, which is something I've found a bit difficult to source information on.

Most of the Volvo B12BLE Custom CB60 Evo II vehicles are fitted with a ZF EcoMat gearbox, but apparently some of the vehicles from 1870-1889 and in the 1900s have a Voith gearbox instead (https://sydneybuses.fandom.com/wiki/Vol ... E_-_Euro_5). Despite this it also seems that 4994 is fitted with a Voith gearbox despite falling outside the range, which seems quite confusing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfvo40kVJhk.

With the CB80 bodied Volvo B8RLEs, 2913, 2991-3003 and 3033-3038 have a different fuel cap placement to the other B8RLEs, despite there seemingly being no other differences. Additionally, while I thought that the B8RLEs were all fitted with ZF EcoLife gearboxes apparently some of the later 31xx series B8RLEs have Voith gearboxes instead - being a frequent commuter onboard ex-STA B8RLEs, however, I haven't heard any real differences between the ZF and allegedly Voith equipped vehicles.

It would be great if anyone had any information to clarify which vehicles are Voith-equipped and which are not - all of the B12BLEs I've been on so far seem to carry the distinctive ZF kickdown.

[Stu]

4994 - 4999 units were built / registered / delivered not long before the batch of units 1870 - 1889. The numbering and batching of buses became even more sporadic and sometimes random in appearance from the fleet numbering of 1900 through to 2300’s.

[stajourneyman]

Didn’t this batch originally get split between Kingsgrove and Mona Vale?

[Stu]

^ Yes you are correct, the Volvo B12BLE units equiped with Voith were originally allocated to Mona Vale Depot and Kingsgrove Depot respectively. The only exception was 4994 which was originally allocated to the M10 metrobus trial with a temporary (wrap) red metrobus livery and was operated from Port Botany Depot. This unit also had a different seating configurations and it spent some time at Kingsgrove Depot after the metrobus trial period ended.

[Mr OC Benz]

Most of the Volvo B12BLE Custom CB60 Evo II vehicles are fitted with a ZF EcoMat gearbox, but apparently some of the vehicles from 1870-1889 and in the 1900s have a Voith gearbox instead (https://sydneybuses.fandom.com/wiki/Vol ... E_-_Euro_5). Despite this it also seems that 4994 is fitted with a Voith gearbox despite falling outside the range, which seems quite confusing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfvo40kVJhk.

Yes the B12BLE Euro 5s in the 18xx and 19xx up to 1956 (1957 onwards is ZF), and I believe from 4991 or 4992 up to 4999 are all fitted with Voith transmission.

With the CB80 bodied Volvo B8RLEs, 2913, 2991-3003 and 3033-3038 have a different fuel cap placement to the other B8RLEs, despite there seemingly being no other differences. Additionally, while I thought that the B8RLEs were all fitted with ZF EcoLife gearboxes apparently some of the later 31xx series B8RLEs have Voith gearboxes instead - being a frequent commuter onboard ex-STA B8RLEs, however, I haven't heard any real differences between the ZF and allegedly Voith equipped vehicles.

All the older B8RLEs up to 3055 are Euro 5 (all with ZF) and hence the different fuel cap placement. 3056 onwards are Euro 6. There are only a small number of Euro 6 B8RLEs with Voith in the 311x range. I'm pretty sure everything up to 3113 is ZF. 3114 and 3116 are Voiths but 3117 is a ZF, so I'm not exactly sure how many are Voiths in this last dozen or so.

[Randomness]

With TSA’s Region 3 transfers (197x series), there are a mixture. 1972 is Voith and 1973/4 are Zf from memory.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

I took a trip on 3114 yesterday - the Voith gearbox wasn't noticeable until the bus started braking down a hill, but other than that they sound pretty similar to the ZF equipped vehicles.

All the older B8RLEs up to 3055 are Euro 5 (all with ZF) and hence the different fuel cap placement. 3056 onwards are Euro 6. There are only a small number of Euro 6 B8RLEs with Voith in the 311x range. I'm pretty sure everything up to 3113 is ZF. 3114 and 3116 are Voiths but 3117 is a ZF, so I'm not exactly sure how many are Voiths in this last dozen or so.

I originally thought that it was only the Volgren bodied B8RLEs that were Euro V with the more powerful engine - however since the earlier CB80s had similar fuel cap placements I guess that makes sense. However, there were a number of Bustech bodied B8RLEs delivered numbered both before and after 3056; the fuel cap placement on both batches is identical from memory and differs from both Euro V and Euro VI versions bodied by other manufacturers - although, the Bustech bodied Scania K280UB and K310UB also had different fuel cap placements to examples by other bodybuilders.

Thanks for the information on the B12BLEs, though - I'll make it a point to try and find a Voith equipped vehicle soon.

[Mr OC Benz]

You can distinguish whether a B8RLE is a Euro 5 or Euro 6 by looking at the VIN.

[stajourneyman]

It seems strange that at the end of a large order of B8 ZFs, they go and throw a few random Voith ones in there, and not even in consecutive order.

Given that was the end of diesel purchases for STA, there was probably nothing to be gained by throwing random odd-bods in there.

How good is your information? Was it from somebody in-the-know?

[BAMBAM]

It seems strange that at the end of a large order of B8 ZFs, they go and throw a few random Voith ones in there, and not even in consecutive order.

Given that was the end of diesel purchases for STA, there was probably nothing to be gained by throwing random odd-bods in there.

How good is your information? Was it from somebody in-the-know?

Most likely when the order was placed at the time, no one knew about that was going to be the end of the Diesel purchases of buses for STA. Pretty sure as well the announcement to buy all Electric Buses was made some time after the last delivery of the CB80, maybe even 1 or 2 years after the last buses that was delivered. So in hindsight, there are justified to try something a little different as its always good to compare and see if there are better options on the market.

[Merc1107]

Both Brisbane and Perth have each taken delivery of a handful of Voith B8s as well, although the one or two I've travelled on didn't seem to be programmed appropriately and seemed to hunt gears a bit, which wasn't what I was expecting.

They're a brilliant gearbox for city work when properly matched to the bus, and while the newer ZF EcoLife isn't anywhere near as harmful to one's neck as its vocal predecessor, there's a lot to be said for fewer gearshifts in low-speed environments where loadings are heavy!

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

You can distinguish whether a B8RLE is a Euro 5 or Euro 6 by looking at the VIN.

Would that be from the 5th-7th letters of the VIN? I noticed that the B8RLEs from 2914 up to 3055 had VINs beginning with YV3T7V7 while 2913 and the B8RLEs from 3056 onwards had VINs beginning with YV3T7U5 - but the earlier B7RLE CB80s had completely different VINs beginning with YV3R6R. There also seems to be no major differences in the VINs of 3114 and 3116 (the Voith-equipped vehicles) to the other B8RLEs.
I'm afraid I don't completely understand what the vehicle identification number represents yet.

[Swift]

Both Brisbane and Perth have each taken delivery of a handful of Voith B8s as well, although the one or two I've travelled on didn't seem to be programmed appropriately and seemed to hunt gears a bit, which wasn't what I was expecting.

They're a brilliant gearbox for city work when properly matched to the bus, and while the newer ZF EcoLife isn't anywhere near as harmful to one's neck as its vocal predecessor, there's a lot to be said for fewer gearshifts in low-speed environments where loadings are heavy!

A Spicer single speed locking torque converter transmission would be better and much simpler than a ZF with so many gear changes that achieves nothing but jerks and engine RPM going up and down as you proceed. Boats don't need it, why do land vehicles suddenly do?

[Merc1107]

"Fool" economy, I guess

[Swift]

With the torque today's engines make, a one speed would be fine. Just add a two speed auxilliary gearbox off limits to drivers for any open road driving required.

[boronia]

A one speed transmission would not be very fuel efficient.

[Swift]

That didn't stop B12BLEs being used. A Dana Spicer would have shaved off thousands from the purchase price and given a super smooth predictable ride, with a robust transmission with little to go wrong.
The unicorn would be a CVT for buses which Leyland were developing in the early 80s. Someone should continue where they left off.

[Bovways]

That didn't stop B12BLEs being used.

The very high fuel consumption of the B12BLEs was a reason one of the smarter operators didn't even consider ordering them; why pay for an extra 15 or 20L per 100kms operated? Reduced fuel consumption was also the reason that particular operator switched from Scania to MAN; the MAN had a higher purchase price but this was more than compensated for across the life of the vehicle by the lower fuel use.

[Swift]

Sometimes you need to spend money to save money!
Fuel is by far the biggest expense to running a motor vehicle.

[Merc1107]

You have to wonder what on earth Volvo were thinking making a City bus (the B12) with that sort of (truck / coach) engine, to then go and pair it with a Voith with it's large gaps between each gear, that keeps the bus out of its peak power / torque zone ... the mind boggles. They do drive smoothly, particularly if you lock them in a low gear (e.g. 2nd) for low-speed situations where the Voith is prone to hunting gears or lugging the engine, but really it's not an ideal combination at all. I would be very interested to see how a B12 would go with an Allison, especially something with close ratios where full acceleration wasn't constantly a necessity.

[Swift]

They have proven to have reduced their fuel consumption by a small amount which adds up over time x number of buses.
I bet Busways wishes they went the Voith route before, although I have observed drivers negating their benefits by holding the accelerator beyond the kickdown detent revving them out in 1st like a mix master when it's designed to get it off the line before locking up in 2nd as soon as practicable.

[Merc1107]

First in a Voith, by the admission of their own literature, is designed to get the engine into its optimum power & torque zone quickly, and when on a grade, hold it in that area to make hill climbs easier.

If they don't want their buses thrashed, perhaps a more realistic timetable should be set?

[Swift]

First in a Voith, by the admission of their own literature, is designed to get the engine into its optimum power & torque zone quickly, and when on a grade, hold it in that area to make hill climbs easier.

The Voith DIWA851.2s certainly didn't always do that in the Sl202s I got to drive up various gradients. I found I scored better performance up some ascents by locking it in 1st rather than let it go into second only to falter and go into a to-and-fro between 1st and second. I was fortunate I had the option to lock it into 1st at all as I notice other bus models let you lock it into 2nd and up only.
I used to love it when the Mercedes W3E110 transmission in the 0405 would go into limp mode and operate in 3rd converter gear only making it a one speed box! Key was not to mash the accelerator from the get go, only modulate it enough to get the revs up sufficiently {about 1500 rpm) to get going. It went like a CVT!

[Swift]

Then we have the hill climbing prowess of the Renk Doromat speed. You know it will get there the same day.
https://youtu.be/JB-XbiedWo8?si=i9WoV2hR4tIRiMdT
Go to the 3 minute 40sec mark. Just wonderous.

[Merc1107]

I only watched the bit mentioned, without headphones, although the bus' more pronounced notes came through quite clearly, and what a sound that was! I need to re-watch that in its entirety with a good headset. Wonder how a Voith persuaded (probably manually) into 1st would compare?

Would be great to find some technical specs, maybe even a cutaway diagram, of the old Renk Doromat. The closest I found was some service literature (in German, of course) for sale - unfortunately I don't understand German, so that wouldn't be money well spent!