Gov't Inquiry - Western Sydney Public Transport

[lunchbox]

The NSW Government is conducting an Inquiry into public transport in [b]Western Sydney.[/b] Public responses are by way of a "5 minute", 2-page, questionnaire (!)

https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/commi ... ubmissions

[tonyp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoojLLb73IQ

[Frances]

I might have missed something but I couldn't find any definition of what they consider Western Sydney to be.

[tonyp]

I might have missed something but I couldn't find any definition of what they consider Western Sydney to be.

I agree that it's not immediately obvious in either of the instances referred to above, but commonly a distinction is made between Western Sydney, the area comprising the WSROC group of LGAs, or Greater Western Sydney, that includes the MACROC group of councils as well. With the continuing spread of population and activity, I think it would be remiss not to refer to any other area than Greater Western Sydney.

[Campbelltown busboy]

The suburbs west of Blacktown along with suburbs in the south west and north west parts of metropolitan Sydney need way more reliable public transport services

[Frances]

Thank, tonyp, for that. If that's what Western Sydney is considered to be, then it looks like I am in it, albeit practically on the thick black line.

I'll check out the questionnaire later although, with buses to Hornsby, Parramatta and the City around the corner from where we live and the Metro station a short walk down the road, I think I'm OK for public transport.

[tonyp]

The suburbs west of Blacktown along with suburbs in the south west and north west parts of metropolitan Sydney need way more reliable public transport services

Better-structured too.

One example that comes to mind are NW bus services to the west of the metro, notably across the west bank of the Hawkesbury (North Richmond, Kurrajong, Bowen Mountain, Glossidia, WIlberforce etc). I sometimes hear complaints from planning purists that the metro and suburban systems shouldn't have those huge commuter car parks and that commuters should be getting to the stations by bus. That's OK close in to most stations, but look at the bus services further away and you can see why people drive to the stations. That situation is exacerbated by the fact that the NW metro stops at Tallawong and doesn't connect to Schofields.

The metro's catchment extends out to the lower Blue Mountains, but look at the bus routes in between. In Kurrajong direction, the buses terminate at Richmond Station, where commuters are faced with a 1/2 hourly train to Schofields, then a bus to Tallawong/Rouse Hill. Alternatively, on weekdays, they can get another bus from Richmond to Windsor, then a very thinly-scheduled bus from Windsor to Rouse Hill. From Glossodia direction, they can get a bus to Windsor, where they have to bridge the gap to Rouse Hill by one of the above methods. The west bank buses should really be running right through to Rouse Hill via Windsor, seven days. It will simplify the situation a little if the NW metro is extended to Schofields, but the Richmond trains then should be 15 minute headways, if that's possible.

The last government actually did a tremendous amount for western Sydney public transport, as well as laying down a future planning framework, but the job needs to be completed by filling out the metro network and refining those bus services.

[tonyp]

Thank, tonyp, for that. If that's what Western Sydney is considered to be, then it looks like I am in it, albeit practically on the thick black line.

I'll check out the questionnaire later although, with buses to Hornsby, Parramatta and the City around the corner from where we live and the Metro station a short walk down the road, I think I'm OK for public transport.

If you're near a metro station, you're not just OK, you're one of the Crown Princes of Sydney real estate! It's one of the best-kept secrets of Sydney real estate how well-placed people living along the NW Sydney metro corridor are in terms of public transport (and roads for that matter). If the metro is eventually linked through to Western Sydney Airport, that will clinch the deal, not only with easy airport access, but even greater access to employment right across the Sydney basin - all with journey times per distance unprecedented in Sydney.

[boronia]

THere is a survey going around on "Bus Services in the South Eastern Suburbs".

The number of comments about bus services in Liverpool and Mt Druitt shows the level of mentality in those areas.

[tonyp]

THere is a survey going around on "Bus Services in the South Eastern Suburbs".

The number of comments about bus services in Liverpool and Mt Druitt shows the level of mentality in those areas.

Elaboration on this would be appreciated. Why are people in the west commenting on a SE Sydney bus survey?

[Frances]

THere is a survey going around on "Bus Services in the South Eastern Suburbs".

The number of comments about bus services in Liverpool and Mt Druitt shows the level of mentality in those areas.

I couldn't find anything about "Bus Services in the South Eastern Suburbs", however I don't doubt you when you say there is one there. I would suggest though that the comments, rather than having anything to do with the mental condition of the residents, may be more to do with levels of literacy in English, and the prevalence of languages other than English as a first language.

[Campbelltown busboy]

Bus frequency in some areas of the Hawkesbury LGA is poor

[boronia]

THere is a survey going around on "Bus Services in the South Eastern Suburbs".

The number of comments about bus services in Liverpool and Mt Druitt shows the level of mentality in those areas.

I couldn't find anything about "Bus Services in the South Eastern Suburbs", however I don't doubt you when you say there is one there. I would suggest though that the comments, rather than having anything to do with the mental condition of the residents, may be more to do with levels of literacy in English, and the prevalence of languages other than English as a first language.

It think it was a council or local MP initiative, through Facebook. I can't find it right now.

The problem is probably Facebook itself. A lot of people suffer from CFPS (Compulsive Facebook Posting Syndrome) and will write anything just for the thrill of "participating".

[BroadGauge]

I agree that it's not immediately obvious in either of the instances referred to above, but commonly a distinction is made between Western Sydney, the area comprising the WSROC group of LGAs, or Greater Western Sydney, that includes the MACROC group of councils as well. With the continuing spread of population and activity, I think it would be remiss not to refer to any other area than Greater Western Sydney.

These boundaries are a bit debated, for example the quite historic map you posted includes the Baulkham Hills Shire (as it was then known), which many would argue would is part of the region, but has not been a member of WSROC for some years as the opinion of the council and the locals appears to be they're not part of the 'west'.

Lithgow is also apparently part of WSROC now (see here), which I personally would disagree is part of Western Sydney - it's clearly a country area aligned with the rest of the Central West region, which is where it's geographically situated, far more-so than with anywhere on the other side of the Blue Mountains.

The metro's catchment extends out to the lower Blue Mountains, but look at the bus routes in between. In Kurrajong direction, the buses terminate at Richmond Station, where commuters are faced with a 1/2 hourly train to Schofields, then a bus to Tallawong/Rouse Hill. Alternatively, on weekdays, they can get another bus from Richmond to Windsor, then a very thinly-scheduled bus from Windsor to Rouse Hill.

North Richmond gets all of 4 buses on a Sunday, with a 6 hour gap in the middle of the day. It's a big enough suburb to have two major supermarkets, but apparently not big enough to have the absolute minimum level of bus service provision that suburban areas get, being at least an hourly service daily.

You might theoretically be able to utilise the buses for a weekday commute if you were connecting with the train at Richmond, but on that line if an outbound train runs more than about 5 minutes late it will miss it's path, meaning it will be held at Schofields instead of Riverstone to cross the inbound service, and then later will be held at Mulgrave instead of Clarendon to cross the following inbound service, which guarantees it will be 15 minutes late by the time it arrives at Richmond, by which time any bus connections will be missed. It happens very regularly on PM peak services.

[tonyp]

These boundaries are a bit debated, for example the quite historic map you posted includes the Baulkham Hills Shire (as it was then known), which many would argue would is part of the region, but has not been a member of WSROC for some years as the opinion of the council and the locals appears to be they're not part of the 'west'.

Lithgow is also apparently part of WSROC now (see here), which I personally would disagree is part of Western Sydney - it's clearly a country area aligned with the rest of the Central West region, which is where it's geographically situated, far more-so than with anywhere on the other side of the Blue Mountains.

...
North Richmond gets all of 4 buses on a Sunday, with a 6 hour gap in the middle of the day. It's a big enough suburb to have two major supermarkets, but apparently not big enough to have the absolute minimum level of bus service provision that suburban areas get, being at least an hourly service daily.

You might theoretically be able to utilise the buses for a weekday commute if you were connecting with the train at Richmond, but on that line if an outbound train runs more than about 5 minutes late it will miss it's path, meaning it will be held at Schofields instead of Riverstone to cross the inbound service, and then later will be held at Mulgrave instead of Clarendon to cross the following inbound service, which guarantees it will be 15 minutes late by the time it arrives at Richmond, by which time any bus connections will be missed. It happens very regularly on PM peak services.

I think The Hills is just being pretentious, it's still NW Sydney and Lithgow is being ludicrous. I know that Lithgow is within the Opal commuting zone, but that doesn't mean it's part of suburban Sydney. On that basis, Newcastle, Central Coast, Wollongong and Nowra could claim to be part of eastern Sydney.

Would duplicating the Richmond line out to Riverstone or Mulgrave overcome the operational hex and enable 15 minute services? As for timekeeping, making all services Cumberland line only (to Leppington) should help reliability. When the full metro opens, it will be quicker to Sydney than the Richmond line, leaving little justification for Richmond line services to run through to Sydney. Then the bus services in the outer NW (Hawkesbury) can be augmented to provide unbroken seven-day services through to Windsor-Schofields/Rouse Hill.

[Campbelltown busboy]

I think The Hills is just being pretentious, it's still NW Sydney and Lithgow is being ludicrous. I know that Lithgow is within the Opal commuting zone, but that doesn't mean it's part of suburban Sydney. On that basis, Newcastle, Central Coast, Wollongong and Nowra could claim to be part of eastern Sydney.

Would duplicating the Richmond line out to Riverstone or Mulgrave overcome the operational hex and enable 15 minute services? As for timekeeping, making all services Cumberland line only (to Leppington) should help reliability. When the full metro opens, it will be quicker to Sydney than the Richmond line, leaving little justification for Richmond line services to run through to Sydney. Then the bus services in the outer NW (Hawkesbury) can be augmented to provide unbroken seven-day services through to Windsor-Schofields/Rouse Hill.

The main thing about public transport in the Hawkesbury LGA is the bus frequencies for the areas in the valley

[Frances]

Pretentious or not, I'm still a bit surprised to find that I supposedly live in Western Sydney.

[tonyp]

Pretentious or not, I'm still a bit surprised to find that I supposedly live in Western Sydney.

North-western Sydney would be the common description, but "Western Sydney" is a broad planning simplification, just as "Eastern Sydney" includes what most of us would call northern and southern Sydney.

[Frances]

Well, I do have one bus service that goes to Parramatta......

[tonyp]

Well, I do have one bus service that goes to Parramatta......

By now, I'm guessing where you are, but connection to Parramatta doesn't necessarily define it, except that the planning trend today is to refocus the west on Parramatta rather than on Sydney. I originally came from Hunters Hill which is regarded as the easternmost point of the north-west. From there, it fans out, with the Lane Cove River valley and Berowra Creek geographically defining the eastern boundary of the north-west. The Parramatta River, then the reservation of the long-proposed Castlereagh Freeway through Blacktown and Penrith marks the physical division between north-west and west. I will leave it to a local to define the division between west and south-west, but I would venture that it's the boundary between Liverpool and Campbelltown/Camden LGAs.

[Transtopic]

Would duplicating the Richmond line out to Riverstone or Mulgrave overcome the operational hex and enable 15 minute services? As for timekeeping, making all services Cumberland line only (to Leppington) should help reliability. When the full metro opens, it will be quicker to Sydney than the Richmond line, leaving little justification for Richmond line services to run through to Sydney. Then the bus services in the outer NW (Hawkesbury) can be augmented to provide unbroken seven-day services through to Windsor-Schofields/Rouse Hill.

Under Labor's previous Rail Clearways program it was proposed to duplicate the Richmond Line to Vineyard, but it was only half completed. With the development now happening in the North West Growth Region, including the Hawkesbury LGA, I can visualise the need to complete the duplication to Richmond. The 2001 Christie Report had recommended extending the line to North Richmond across the Hawkesbury River as a long term goal. The line did in fact previously extend to Kurrajong.

After the O'Farrell Liberal government came to power in the 2011 election, with Gladys Berejiklian as Transport Minister, they changed their pre-election commitment to build the NWRL as an extension of the then CityRail network to the metro line we now have, after the Gillard Federal Labor government declined to commit any funding, instead favouring completion of the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link (PERL).

Following the change to the metro system, which basically used the already approved Labor proposal for their defunct North West Metro alignment from Epping to Rouse Hill, with stabling yards at what is now Tallawong, further studies and consultation were undertaken to determine alternative extensions to the Richmond Line. One was to Schofields and the other to Vineyard via Box Hill. IMO, the extension to Vineyard would have been preferable. Some may argue that the extension to Schofields would potentially include further extension to Marsden Park and beyond. I'll leave it up to others to work it out.

While I acknowledge that there will be the incentive for commuters from Richmond to interchange to Metro Northwest at Schofields, assuming it is extended from Tallawong, to reach Macquarie Park, North Shore destinations and the CBD, there will still be a need for travel further down the line to Blacktown, Westmead, Parramatta, Inner West destinations such as Burwood and the CBD. You can add to that Sydney Olympic Park via the future Metro West with interchange at Westmead.

Suggestions have been made that all T1 Richmond Line services should be diverted to the T5 Cumberland Line, which would require interchange for commuters south of Schofields to reach the CBD. I doubt if many would be aware of that fact and it's questionable whether it would be supported. I don't think they've ever been consulted yet.

Following extensive community consultation, commuters on the T3 Line west of Bankstown have already overwhelmingly stated their preference for a single seat journey to the CBD, rather than being forced to interchange to the metro at Bankstown. TfNSW has conceded and agreed to reinstate the Liverpool via Regents Park service via the Inner West Local to the City Circle. The direct Liverpool to Bankstown service will be cancelled. I wouldn't expect that T1 Richmond Line commuters would react any differently.

[tonyp]

TfNSW has already mapped out a metro connection between Tallawong and St Marys as there are station sites identified at Schofields and Marsden Park. There is also a reservation for a NW Tway extension to Box Hill. However, further urban development to the northwest is severely limited by the floodplain and there is little justification for duplicating T1 all the way to Richmond. However, the question is to what extent would it need to be duplicated to enable a 15 minute headway to Richmond. The rest of the job needs to be done by better local bus services that link to the metro, not just to T1.

[boronia]

Would this extension be of the NW metro, or the Airport metro? Bearing in mind there can't be through running due to different loading gauges.

[alleve]

Would this extension be of the NW metro, or the Airport metro? Bearing in mind there can't be through running due to different loading gauges.

I believe Nw Metro and Airport metro would meet at Schofields

[tonyp]

Suggestions have been made that all T1 Richmond Line services should be diverted to the T5 Cumberland Line, which would require interchange for commuters south of Schofields to reach the CBD. I doubt if many would be aware of that fact and it's questionable whether it would be supported. I don't think they've ever been consulted yet.

It would be advantageous for Richmond line commuters wanting to go to the Sydney CBD to interchange to the West Metro at Westmead. Say the West Metro trip from Westmead to Sydney CBD is 23 minutes at worst, the present semi-express T1 journey from Westmead to Wynyard is 36 minutes. Even with interchange time, passengers would still come out ahead by interchanging. Incidentally, virtually no Richmond line trains stop at Burwood. In terms of intermediate stops, Richmond line trains do all their work between Richmond and Parramatta. After that, there's only Strathfield and Redfern, so there's little point running through to Sydney CBD, especially considering that the metro lines (both NW and Metro West) will get people there faster as well as stopping at every station.

Regarding Richmond line interchange at Schofields with two future choices of route at that point, the present T1 semi-express time for Schofields to Wynyard is 1 hour, whereas on the metro from Schofields to Martin Place it would be 50 minutes (present known Tallawong- Martin Place time of 48 minutes plus 2 minutes Tallawong-Schofields). Even if we're talking about Schofields to Town Hall/ Pitt St, that's 57 minutes via the Richmond line and 52 minutes via the metro. Only if the destination is Central, do the two options balance out at 54 minutes.

I've tried to answer my own question about how much duplication of the Richmond line it would take to achieve a 15 minute service to Richmond. I don't know what Christie was coming at with duplication to Vineyard, because that certainly wouldn't achieve it. Perhaps he was thinking of the limit on suburban development before hitting the floodplain (excepting the industrial zone at Mulgrave). So I figured that Mulgrave is as far as you could economically duplicate, which would doubtless guarantee a 20 minute headway, but 15 minutes might be possible with a crossing at Clarendon. This all depends on the trains running with the precision of a Swiss watch and we all know what can happen further down the line to sabotage this.

All of which comes back to my earlier point that Hawkesbury region bus services should be unlocked from their traditional role of feeding just the Richmond line and now need to feed both this line and the metro. The present token anorexic weekday service between Windsor and Rouse Hill is nowhere remotely near enough.