It depends on what is classified as the "City". Is it the Northern CBD or Central, which has the greatest patronage of the CBD stations and the most interchange opportunities to other lines, including light rail and bus services? Metro West would fall short of that even compared with the existing T1 services to Central. Of course they never compare the metro journey times with the proposed upgrades to the existing network, where journey times will be significantly improved from the current fastest express time of 25 minutes. Rather than focussing on a faster service from Parramatta to the "CBD", which can be met with upgrades to the existing network without the need to interchange, it would be of more benefit to increase its catchment area with more stations than what is currently proposed, even though it might be slower, but it's probably too late for that now.alleve wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:48 pm Agreed. Metro West will make trips between Parramatta and the City/T4 faster. If you live beyond or in between Parramatta and the City, you won't need to use Metro West. As a result it could be argued that the T7 needs to be retained, both as a link to Lidcombe for interchange, and for events as trains run to Olympic Park from Blacktown and through Strathfield.
If TfNSW decides it is intent on closing Olympic Park station, could the line be reused for an extension of Parramatta light rail from Carter St to Lidcombe station?
Metro network expansion
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Re: Metro network expansion
- alleve
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Re: Metro network expansion
By "the City" I meant the City of Sydney, the CBD, etc. It is and will stay "the city", no matter how big Parramatta or any other part of Sydney gets. There will be no point in my lifetime and probably ever in which the Sydney CBD is not the principal destination of commuters.Transtopic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:05 pmIt depends on what is classified as the "City". Is it the Northern CBD or Central, which has the greatest patronage of the CBD stations and the most interchange opportunities to other lines, including light rail and bus services? Metro West would fall short of that even compared with the existing T1 services to Central. Of course they never compare the metro journey times with the proposed upgrades to the existing network, where journey times will be significantly improved from the current fastest express time of 25 minutes. Rather than focussing on a faster service from Parramatta to the "CBD", which can be met with upgrades to the existing network without the need to interchange, it would be of more benefit to increase its catchment area with more stations than what is currently proposed, even though it might be slower, but it's probably too late for that now.alleve wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:48 pm Agreed. Metro West will make trips between Parramatta and the City/T4 faster. If you live beyond or in between Parramatta and the City, you won't need to use Metro West. As a result it could be argued that the T7 needs to be retained, both as a link to Lidcombe for interchange, and for events as trains run to Olympic Park from Blacktown and through Strathfield.
If TfNSW decides it is intent on closing Olympic Park station, could the line be reused for an extension of Parramatta light rail from Carter St to Lidcombe station?
Agree with what you have to say.
It is definitely too late to add more stops to Metro West.
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Re: Metro network expansion
I disagree that the planning is being done holistically. If that was the case, then why has Sydney Metro in its silo, being tasked with the responsibility of determining the future of the broader Sydney Trains' network? That should be the responsibility of the senior rail planners in TfNSW, at arm's length from Sydney Metro, which would have a vested interest in furthering its agenda. They're not one and the same. This should be evident with anyone with half a brain, that there is a clear imbalance between funding of the metro expansion and upgrading of the existing network.tonyp wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:20 pmI think you're over-dramatising the situation. These are TfNSW planners. Sydney Metro and Sydney Trains are part of TfNSW. We're not talking about the competing siloed agencies of years past. This is being done holistically. There's an equal interest in getting the suburban operation to work better, hence the removal of the Bankstown line from the suburban system and the operational improvements to the suburban system that will follow,Transtopic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:22 pm So what you're saying is that Sydney Metro, through its City & South West project team in the case of the remaining T3 Lines, is determining the future of Sydney Trains' lines which aren't part of the metro projects. They're hardly going to be focussed on upgrading the existing network are they, as their brief is to oversee metro projects and expansion of that network. Does that mean that any planning for the future upgrading of the Sydney Trains' network, including the More Trains, More Services Program amongst others, will now be overseen by Sydney Metro? They could pick and choose which parts of the existing network they could raid. It's like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank.
Re: Metro network expansion
Has it occurred to you that when a new system is being built like this, there's an initial impetus to build up a critical mass so that it can fully perform its role? Obviously there is going to be far more work at this stage on the metro system than on the suburban system which is already fully developed and is at a stage where it needs fine-tuning rather than further development.Transtopic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:30 pm I disagree that the planning is being done holistically. If that was the case, then why has Sydney Metro in its silo, being tasked with the responsibility of determining the future of the broader Sydney Trains' network? That should be the responsibility of the senior rail planners in TfNSW, at arm's length from Sydney Metro, which would have a vested interest in furthering its agenda. They're not one and the same. This should be evident with anyone with half a brain, that there is a clear imbalance between funding of the metro expansion and upgrading of the existing network.
The government, TfNSW and the planners are also acutely aware of the lessons of history regarding Sydney's public transport, where projects are started and then halted after political change. We've well and truly had enough of that over the last century. It's vitally important at this stage that these projects are locked in and completed so that people aren't looking at half-constructed tunnel portals and excavations surrounded by hoardings as you and I were for much of our lives in Sydney.
There's an obvious impetus at present to fill in and connect up the western part of the grid that you see in the 2056 plan in order that development in that part of Sydney can continue with a rail transit network already in place, rather than developing more car-dependence while waiting decades, if ever, for rail, as we've seen in the past.
Re: Metro network expansion
Who is this Sydney Metro organisation?
The operator on the NW and C&SE Metro (Metro Trains Sydney - HK MTR, John Holland and UGL) is a different company to the announced shadow operator (Ricardo and Seoul Metro) for Metro West and Western Sydney Airport.
And TAHE will own all the track, infrastructure and trains, same body as all Sydney Trains.
The operator on the NW and C&SE Metro (Metro Trains Sydney - HK MTR, John Holland and UGL) is a different company to the announced shadow operator (Ricardo and Seoul Metro) for Metro West and Western Sydney Airport.
And TAHE will own all the track, infrastructure and trains, same body as all Sydney Trains.
Re: Metro network expansion
Good news from Chris Minns' social media:
Maybe we'll see proper bipartisan transport planning from now on?Western Sydney deserves public transport like the East - not just toll roads. So we’ll expand Metro lines across Western Sydney!
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Re: Metro network expansion
Would be interested in seeing a more in depth statement from him soon. Not surprising, but good news indeed!
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Re: Metro network expansion
Or are they trying the trick used by Federal Labor at the last election - avoid rocking the boat, and hope people are ready to vote for a change in leadership?
Re: Metro network expansion
Labor is taking a more pragmatic view, only looking at business cases for 2 of the 4, the Tallawong - St Marys and Western Sydney Airport - South West lines.
Labor pumps brakes on two Metro lines, but plans go-ahead for others (Sydney Morning Herald)
Labor pumps brakes on two Metro lines, but plans go-ahead for others (Sydney Morning Herald)
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Re: Metro network expansion
Happy about them pumping the brakes on WSA to Glenfield. Not happy about them pumping the brakes on Westmead to WSA. Tallawong through Schofields is common sense.Linto63 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:56 pm Labor is taking a more pragmatic view, only looking at business cases for 2 of the 4, the Tallawong - St Marys and Western Sydney Airport - South West lines.
Labor pumps brakes on two Metro lines, but plans go-ahead for others (Sydney Morning Herald)
Re: Metro network expansion
The thing is that the business case studies for all the lines were to be coordinated. By dropping two or three of of the studies, Labor would be eliminating the contextual overview that these studies require and from which priorities would be formed. Which is what the current government is doing.
Re: Metro network expansion
Piddling tens of million up the wall on making business cases for lines that had little chance of being built is pointless. There would already be a view within as to which would have the strongest case, there was never any chance that all four would be built. Better to focus on those that have the most realistic chance of coming to fruition.
Re: Metro network expansion
Wary Labor cuts lines on Metro vision but backs ‘loop’ for western Sydney
NSW Labor will commit to just two of four Metro extensions promised by the Perrottet government, amid uncertainty around costs for the mega-project.
@LeemingLachie
Daily Telegraph, February 26, 2023 - 4:30PM
Two new Metro lines would be built connecting Sydney’s western suburbs to one another under Labor’s vision for the region, but two other extensions proposed by the Perrottet Government are set to be dumped, the party has announced.
Labor will prioritise building new Metro extensions linking the aerotropolis to Glenfield via Leppington and the Macarthur region, as well as building a new Metro connecting Tallawong to St Marys, as part of their election promises for western Sydney.
The NSW Coalition pledged earlier this month to pump $260 million into creating final business cases for those two lines, as well as two additional ones – a Metro linking Westmead to the new Western Sydney Airport, and a line connecting Glenfield to Bankstown.
But Labor will only pursue two of those four, with Opposition leader Chris Minns on Sunday saying it would explore building the link between the new airport and Glenfield and Macarthur in partnership with the federal government, while pumping an extra $40m into the final business case for the Tallawong to St Marys link.
Mr Minns said the two links Labor had committed to would build a public transport “loop” for Sydney.
“We can’t have a situation where the fastest growing suburbs in the entire state are in communities with access to toll roads, but with no long term plan when it comes to public transport. This is about closing the loop in a responsible way,” he said.
Mr Minns also pressured the government to reveal if they’d continue with upgrading the Sydenham to Bankstown line from regular train services to Metro, following last year’s revelations the line had blown out by $6 billion in costs.
Premier Dominic Perrottet on Sunday insisted “We are completely committed to the Southwest Metro”, firing back that “the first projects to go” would be the Metro lines if Labor wins next month’s election.
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Re: Metro network expansion
The SMH article is somewhat ambiguous, as it doesn't specifically refer to the extension and conversion of the SWRL to metro, for which a business case is already underway.
The government's proposed business cases are for 4 new metro lines, being -
- Tallawong to St Marys
- Westmead to the Aerotropolis
- Bankstown to Glenfield via Liverpool
- Macarthur to the Aerotropolis
The SWRL extension and conversion from the Aerotropolis to Glenfield is a 5th metro project, which presumably would directly link up with the Bankstown to Glenfield via Liverpool project. This is why I'm sceptical of whether the SWRL conversion will link directly with the WSA metro line from St Marys to the Aerotropolis. The following press release is also ambiguous, although it states that it will be a "continuation" of the WSA metro.
https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/pl ... s-underway
From my reading of Labor's support for 2 of the 4 business cases for the proposed new metro lines, i.e. Tallawong to St Marys and Macarthur to the Aerotropolis, that suggests to me that it refers to the original proposal for a continuous cross regional line from Schofields to Macarthur, in tandem with the Metro Northwest extension from Tallawong to Schofields, where the incompatible lines would interchange. That would after all make sense as it has been designed for wider 4 car metro trains with 25kv AC power, which would be incompatible with the existing metro trains and power source. I can't seriously imagine, that what would appear to be a proposed continuous metro line from Bankstown to the Aerotropolis via Liverpool and the SWRL conversion, operating 8 car trains and a different 1,500v DC power source, is contemplated. That would leave the so called Cumberland Line metro to Epping via Parramatta up in the air, unless it is branched.
There is some justification by Labor in not committing to the Bankstown to Glenfield metro extension until they have a clearer picture of the status of the Bankstown Line metro conversion. There have been rumours going around, whether true or not, that the Bankstown Line conversion may be cancelled if the current government is re-elected. They obviously wouldn't be telegraphing this prior to the election. The fact that Perrottet has refused to nominate a completion date only reinforces this suspicion. I'm sure that Minns would have contacts within the transport bureaucracy to suggest this is a possibility. We will just have to wait and see.
If in fact the Bankstown to Glenfield metro line doesn't proceed, then it brings into question the need to convert the SWRL to metro, notwithstanding
the proposed Cumberland Line metro to Epping via Parramatta. Otherwise, the proposed metro extension and conversion of the SWRL could potentially end up being an orphan. Things are very fluid.
As the WSA Metro line from St Marys to the Aerotropolis is now underway, I could support its extensions to Schofields and Macarthur as a stand-alone line, as the likely demand could be adequately catered for with 4 car trains and the infrastructure would be cheaper to construct. My only concern is that this project doesn't take account of the more likely greater travel demand from the developing South West Growth Region to the Sydney CBD, as well as Parramatta, via the SWRL. Demand for travel to WSA and the Aerotropolis will be limited in comparative terms. Existing demand at Edmondson Park and Leppington to the CBD should demonstrate that and it's not going to change dramatically with the development of WSA and the Aerotropolis.
At the end of the day, the only commitment by both sides of politics is to proceed with business cases, without any commitment to starting construction. The business cases for some of these projects may or may not stack up, including the SWRL metro conversion.
The government's proposed business cases are for 4 new metro lines, being -
- Tallawong to St Marys
- Westmead to the Aerotropolis
- Bankstown to Glenfield via Liverpool
- Macarthur to the Aerotropolis
The SWRL extension and conversion from the Aerotropolis to Glenfield is a 5th metro project, which presumably would directly link up with the Bankstown to Glenfield via Liverpool project. This is why I'm sceptical of whether the SWRL conversion will link directly with the WSA metro line from St Marys to the Aerotropolis. The following press release is also ambiguous, although it states that it will be a "continuation" of the WSA metro.
https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/pl ... s-underway
From my reading of Labor's support for 2 of the 4 business cases for the proposed new metro lines, i.e. Tallawong to St Marys and Macarthur to the Aerotropolis, that suggests to me that it refers to the original proposal for a continuous cross regional line from Schofields to Macarthur, in tandem with the Metro Northwest extension from Tallawong to Schofields, where the incompatible lines would interchange. That would after all make sense as it has been designed for wider 4 car metro trains with 25kv AC power, which would be incompatible with the existing metro trains and power source. I can't seriously imagine, that what would appear to be a proposed continuous metro line from Bankstown to the Aerotropolis via Liverpool and the SWRL conversion, operating 8 car trains and a different 1,500v DC power source, is contemplated. That would leave the so called Cumberland Line metro to Epping via Parramatta up in the air, unless it is branched.
There is some justification by Labor in not committing to the Bankstown to Glenfield metro extension until they have a clearer picture of the status of the Bankstown Line metro conversion. There have been rumours going around, whether true or not, that the Bankstown Line conversion may be cancelled if the current government is re-elected. They obviously wouldn't be telegraphing this prior to the election. The fact that Perrottet has refused to nominate a completion date only reinforces this suspicion. I'm sure that Minns would have contacts within the transport bureaucracy to suggest this is a possibility. We will just have to wait and see.
If in fact the Bankstown to Glenfield metro line doesn't proceed, then it brings into question the need to convert the SWRL to metro, notwithstanding
the proposed Cumberland Line metro to Epping via Parramatta. Otherwise, the proposed metro extension and conversion of the SWRL could potentially end up being an orphan. Things are very fluid.
As the WSA Metro line from St Marys to the Aerotropolis is now underway, I could support its extensions to Schofields and Macarthur as a stand-alone line, as the likely demand could be adequately catered for with 4 car trains and the infrastructure would be cheaper to construct. My only concern is that this project doesn't take account of the more likely greater travel demand from the developing South West Growth Region to the Sydney CBD, as well as Parramatta, via the SWRL. Demand for travel to WSA and the Aerotropolis will be limited in comparative terms. Existing demand at Edmondson Park and Leppington to the CBD should demonstrate that and it's not going to change dramatically with the development of WSA and the Aerotropolis.
At the end of the day, the only commitment by both sides of politics is to proceed with business cases, without any commitment to starting construction. The business cases for some of these projects may or may not stack up, including the SWRL metro conversion.
Re: Metro network expansion
The Telegraph article provides greater clarity.
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Re: Metro network expansion
No it doesn't. The SWRL extension and metro conversion isn't one of the 4 new metro lines for which business cases are proposed, notwithstanding that a business case for that project is already underway. There's been an assumption made that it includes that project. There is still some ambiguity about what is actually proposed.
Minns hasn't ruled out the Bankstown to Glenfield via Liverpool metro extension. He just wants to get greater clarity on the status of the Bankstown Line metro conversion. Taking the government on its word, without access to all of the information, isn't enough.
If the Bankstown to Glenfield metro extension for one reason or another doesn't proceed, then it brings into question the need to convert the SWRL, which IMO is a stupid idea anyway.
All of these metro projects, including the SWRL extension and conversion, are still dependent on the outcome of the business cases and it shouldn't be assumed that they will stack up. Even then, the priorities have to be established and starting dates for construction determined. That could still be a long way off, as there's been no commitment so far from either party.
Re: Metro network expansion
It sounds like a replay of the postwar Labor government's elimination of the tram system - buses are the answer, Councils rising up against them.
Chris Minns announces new rapid buses fleet for Western Sydney if he wins the election
A new fleet of rapid buses would link Campbelltown, Liverpool and Penrith to Sydney’s second airport from 2026 if Labor wins the election, but Chris Minns faced criticism from inside his own ranks for refusing to commit to two future metro lines.
James O'Doherty
and
Lachlan Leeming
March 1, 2023 - 5:00AM
dailytelegraph.com.au
Minns accused of abandoning Western Sydney metro plans to ‘play politics’
NSW Labor Leader Chris Minns is “playing politics” by prioritising rail lines in marginal seats at the expense of Western Sydney’s metro proposals, according to Fairfield Mayor Frank Carbone. His comments come after NSW Labor announced they would delay the metro projects which would connect Sydney’s east to west – and instead focus on connecting the city’s north and south. “Here we are facing a scenario where in Western Sydney people are still going to have to face hours and hours on public transport,” Mr Carbone told Sky News Australia. “Why take the two projects off the table which have been identified by Transport for NSW – the one project … Infrastructure Australia and Infrastructure NSW has said is a priority. “He’s playing politics and trying to drive the rail lines in the areas that he wants to win which are the two marginal seats. “I’ve put six years of my life into fighting for that link.”
A new fleet of rapid buses would link Campbelltown, Liverpool and Penrith to Sydney’s second airport from 2026 if Labor wins the election, in a pledge which came as leader Chris Minns faced criticism from inside his own ranks for refusing to commit to two future metro lines to Badgerys Creek.
As part of the $305 million election pledge, Labor would procure 84 new locally-built buses to service three rapid bus routes and four local routes from 2026, insisting new metro lines currently under construction may not be ready in time for when the airport opens.
It came after Mr Minns put the brakes on two proposed metro lines over cost blowout concerns, in a move the government says will eventually deprive 250,000 residents of a metro station in their suburb.
The Coalition has committed to funding separate business cases for the two metro lines, one linking Bankstown to Glenfield and the other connecting Parramatta to the airport line.
Premier Dominic Perrottet yesterday accused Labor of scrapping projects to cover a “budget blackhole”.
“Labor are already cancelling projects from opposition because they don’t have an economic plan and without an economic plan, they can’t build the transport infrastructure that Western Sydney need,” he said.
Now one of Mr Minns’ own MPs has lashed out at Labor putting new metro lines on the go-slow.
A Labor MP told The Telegraph lashed the move, calling it “very shortsighted”.
“Labor can’t crow about what the Libs have done for Western Sydney, when this is what they’ve done,” they said.
Mr Minns said the new rapid buses would be in place when the airport opens, accusing the Coalition of failing to deliver on a similar plan.
“Dominic Perrottet promised the buses five years ago. They haven’t delivered. Labor will, and we’ll also create more jobs in the process by making sure the buses are built right here in NSW,” he said.
“We have a situation where a new airport will be open, thousands of jobs created but people wanting to work at the airport don’t have access to public transport services to get there.
“Labor is prioritising the transport links Western Sydney needs to get to and from work and around the city.”
While not explicitly cancelling the planned metro lines, Mr Minns said that if elected his government would finish existing projects first – like converting the existing rail line from Bankstown to Sydenham to accommodate the driverless metro.
“When you’ve got debt exploding, the deficit exploding and projects that are far from being completed, I think it makes a lot more sense to complete stage one, rather than putting all the money into stage two,” Mr Minns said.
Labor Treasury spokesman Daniel Mookhey said Labor’s “priority” would be to “get to the bottom” of how much the Bankstown to Sydenham conversion will cost before committing to future projects. Mr Mookhey eventually committed Labor to completing the project even amid cost blowouts.
But he said the Bankstown to Glenfield section depended on getting costs of existing work under control.
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Re: Metro network expansion
Not at all, no existing infrastructure is being eliminated here. What this is is making sure money isn't wasted. As you can read in that article, nothing is cancelled. And I'm pretty sure rapid buses + a metro is better for the business park when it opens than just a metro is.
And why are we making political comparisons to before I was born again?
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Re: Metro network expansion
It is interesting to see an article in the current Australia Railway History about a proposed Liverpool to Mulgoa railway as far back as 1896.
If it had been built, probably would have suffered the same fate as the Camden line?
If it had been built, probably would have suffered the same fate as the Camden line?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
@ The Museum of Fire.
Re: Metro network expansion
Because somebody still hasn't come to terms with a decision made 70 years ago by people who are long gone, and endlessly tries to work it into threads where it is of no relevance just to labour (or is it Labor?) the same points over and over.alleve wrote: ↑And why are we making political comparisons to before I was born again?
If people want to discuss the successes and failings of previous governments, go for it, but do so in a dedicated thread so that those who want to engage can do so, and those that are bored of it can ignore.
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Re: Metro network expansion
This just seems to be an excuse to bring up history, I struggle to see how the reference to post-war governments getting rid of the trams is in any way relevant to Minns' policy
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Re: Metro network expansion
But this article is NOT just about Minn's policy. Some historical references are certainly acceptable.
Living in the Shire.