Rail Observations 2023

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

Another solution that would pretty-much eliminate the need for coordinating bus times with trains is 15 minute headways for feeder bus routes. This is what I'd envisage along with the use of smaller buses with lower operating costs - ideally Rosa size, but since afaik we can't get those accessible yet, something like Optare Solo or an enlarged Hino Poncho. The present regime of big 12 metre buses (usually carrying mostly fresh air), with high capex and operating costs, running every 30 minutes and pot luck meeting trains isn't serving anybody's interests.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:27 am It would be wrong to put timetabling back in the hands of individual operators without TfNSW oversight. A successful transit system based on interchange needs central oversight of timetabling. The worse thing would be for all these functions to devolve back into operator silos and customers are dumped back into the old world of missed connections and long waits between trip segments.

The only ideology I see around the traps at present is the almost religious devotion to the double deck suburban system, rather than open mindedness to finding the best solution for the circumstances.
With regard to timetabling, the following was noted by the Review Panel -

"6.1. Timetable Development
As set out in Section 4, introduction of the 2017 timetable was responding to a substantial growth in patronage. However introduction of the timetable had a significant impact on the reliability and resilience of Sydney Trains’ services. The timetable has failed to sustain agreed punctuality targets.
It has been agreed between TfNSW and Sydney Trains that responsibility for the design and production of the detailed timetable, should be transferred from Greater Sydney (TfNSW) to Sydney Trains. The change has been accepted in principle by the parties, however, the process for the change has been stalled for some time and should be bought forward to ensure that the quality of the 2024 timetable is not put at risk by any dislocation between key timetable planning functions. The team responsible for timetable development should report directly to the Sydney Trains Chief Executive to confirm its independence from Sydney Trains’ operations and maintenance functions and to ensure proper consideration to the network access requirements of third-party operators.
Recommendation
That TfNSW and Sydney Trains expedite the transfer of the detailed timetable development function back to Sydney Trains with the function reporting directly to the Chief Executive."

Your assertion of an "almost religious devotion to the double deck suburban system" is misplaced. I can't speak for others, but from my perspective, it's not about a religious devotion to "double deck trains" per se, but about maintaining the integrity of the network, regardless of the type of rolling stock. Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that the DD rolling stock is still going to be around for at least the next 20-30 years. The Tangara replacements will give an indication of the future direction of the Sydney Trains network.

If there was open mindedness, which there wasn't under the previous government, then some of these metro projects wouldn't have seen the light of day. It was all about ideology to neuter Sydney Trains through the denial of adequate funding to maintain and upgrade services as well as the lack of proper governance to enable Sydney Trains to have an input into it's efficient operation. The Sydney Trains Review brought this into focus. Sydney Metro was set up as the "saviour" of the Sydney Trains inadequacies, which doesn't wash with me. I await the Sydney Metro Review with great anticipation, which will give us a clearer idea of how credible the current rail transport strategy is.
tonyp
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

The reason for the metro is higher capacity, faster journey time, stopping at all stops, closer headways, lower operating costs and greater reliability.
Linto63
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: This is what I'd envisage along with the use of smaller buses with lower operating costs - ideally Rosa size, but since afaik we can't get those accessible yet, something like Optare Solo or an enlarged Hino Poncho.
A few operators in Sydney experimented with small buses in Sydney in the 1980s and 1990s. Evidently the pros didn't outweigh the cons, as all were moved on after a couple of years. It wasn't just a Sydney thing, operators in all other mainland capital cities and various regional cities went down the same path to various extents and came to the same conclusion. ACTION was the only operator whose vehicles went full life, but when the time again, it too reverted back to full size buses.
tonyp wrote: The present regime of big 12 metre buses (usually carrying mostly fresh air).
If a 12 metre bus operating a 30 minute frequency carries mostly fresh air, then a smaller bus operating a 15 minute frequency will do exactly the same.
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alleve
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by alleve »

Linto63 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:58 am
tonyp wrote: This is what I'd envisage along with the use of smaller buses with lower operating costs - ideally Rosa size, but since afaik we can't get those accessible yet, something like Optare Solo or an enlarged Hino Poncho.
A few operators in Sydney experimented with small buses in Sydney in the 1980s and 1990s. Evidently the pros didn't outweigh the cons, as all were moved on after a couple of years. It wasn't just a Sydney thing, operators in all other mainland capital cities and various regional cities went down the same path to various extents and came to the same conclusion. ACTION was the only operator whose vehicles went full life, but when the time again, it too reverted back to full size buses.
tonyp wrote: The present regime of big 12 metre buses (usually carrying mostly fresh air).
If a 12 metre bus operating a 30 minute frequency carries mostly fresh air, then a smaller bus operating a 15 minute frequency will do exactly the same.
Not necessarily, a more frequent bus service would encourage more people to use the bus than when it runs less often. I think the idea of buying a whole fleet of minibuses to run these services is a waste though. Just use existing buses. Gives you far more flexibility.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Linto63 »

alleve wrote: Not necessarily, a more frequent bus service would encourage more people to use the bus than when it runs less often.
Probably, but it wouldn't double it. I've lived in two areas where the service frequency was doubled, only to be reverted 6-12 months later because patronage didn't grow.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Let's get back to rail observations which is what this thread is supposed to be about the bus thing is taking the discussion off topic
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:25 am The reason for the metro is higher capacity, faster journey time, stopping at all stops, closer headways, lower operating costs and greater reliability.
That's a very simplistic response to a complex infrastructure deficiency on the existing network.

There may be the case for metro when building new segregated lines into areas not currently serviced by rail and new cross regional links, particularly in the higher density inner city regions and not in the boondocks, but it's not a solution for resolving the current infrastructure deficiencies on the Sydney Trains' network. Duplicating or converting existing lines to metro would be a waste of limited resources to satisfy some ideological agenda, when the existing lines can upgraded to a world class standard for a suburban railway at far less cost and disruption without throwing the baby out with the bathwater and compromising the integrity of the residual network.

Just BTW, the Review noted that evidence to date suggests that the performance of Sydney Trains’ fleet has not been a major contributor to the declining levels of customer service. It's all about the inadequate infrastructure to provide an enhanced and reliable service.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Glen »

alleve wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:44 am
Merc1107 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:04 am
I was under the impression (from the general consensus in these threads) that the timetables were too slack and unnecessarily slowing down people's journeys. It obviously can't be both, so which is it?
It is a bit of both. Some parts of the timetable are too tight, some are too slack. The parts that are too tight are the parts that don't get complained about on here.
Which parts are too tight?

The only parts I've seen are too slack. Our trains spend more time idling at stations pointlessly than any other network I've travelled on.

As for the maintenance backlog I'd like somebody to show me a network that has had as many weekend shutdowns as this one since 1978. What have they been doing all that time?
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Merc1107 »

Glen wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:23 pmWhat have they been doing all that time?
Waiting for the kettle to boil, perhaps? :mrgreen:
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Aurora »

Glen wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:23 pm Which parts are too tight?

The only parts I've seen are too slack. Our trains spend more time idling at stations pointlessly than any other network I've travelled on.
Volume of services, particularly during peak with long stretches of 3-minute frequencies in the city and Shore.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Glen »

Aurora wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:42 pm
Glen wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:23 pm Which parts are too tight?

The only parts I've seen are too slack. Our trains spend more time idling at stations pointlessly than any other network I've travelled on.
Volume of services, particularly during peak with long stretches of 3-minute frequencies in the city and Shore.
Running trains 3 minutes apart is "too tight"?
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by boronia »

Aurora wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:42 pm
Glen wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:23 pm Which parts are too tight?

The only parts I've seen are too slack. Our trains spend more time idling at stations pointlessly than any other network I've travelled on.
Volume of services, particularly during peak with long stretches of 3-minute frequencies in the city and Shore.
Always going to be problems when you have multiple lines sharing the same platforms.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Aurora »

Glen wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:01 pm
Aurora wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:42 pm
Volume of services, particularly during peak with long stretches of 3-minute frequencies in the city and Shore.
Running trains 3 minutes apart is "too tight"?
It does when there are at least 25 in a row (AM and PM peak Shore line). Where do those trains go when there is a significant blockage causing delays down the line? They get delayed one after the other, before you know it, trains are 30-60 mins late. Any diversions, for example around the city circle immediately delays the trains already scheduled there. Before you know it, most lines have trains at least 15-30 minutes late then crew displacement causes further delays.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by alleve »

Glen wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:01 pm
Aurora wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:42 pm
Volume of services, particularly during peak with long stretches of 3-minute frequencies in the city and Shore.
Running trains 3 minutes apart is "too tight"?
Trains from multiple lines share the same platforms. There's a big difference between every 3 minutes on the T4, which works almost flawlessly, and every 3 minutes on the T1/T9 where in effect three different lines interact, or every 3 minutes on the T2/T3/T8 where literally three different lines interact.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Glen »

Aurora wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:07 pm
Glen wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:01 pm
Running trains 3 minutes apart is "too tight"?
It does when there are at least 25 in a row (AM and PM peak Shore line). Where do those trains go when there is a significant blockage causing delays down the line?
The same place they'd go if the trains ran 4 minutes apart.

Nowhere.

Oh dear, we do set the bar low in Sydney.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Glen »

alleve wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:04 pm
Glen wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:01 pm
Running trains 3 minutes apart is "too tight"?
Trains from multiple lines share the same platforms. There's a big difference between every 3 minutes on the T4, which works almost flawlessly, and every 3 minutes on the T1/T9 where in effect three different lines interact, or every 3 minutes on the T2/T3/T8 where literally three different lines interact.
On that basis the T4 is a combination of three lines, Cronulla, Waterfall and Illawarra Locals.

Also the City Outer & City Inner do not run constant 3 minutes frequencies, as there are regular 6 minute gaps.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Aurora »

Bottom line, some peak trains can easily be cut to provide increased reliability and some breathing space. There are a number of extra one and two trip workings (generally K runs) that can easily be reorganised.
Glen wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:10 pm Also the City Outer & City Inner do not run constant 3 minutes frequencies, as there are regular 6 minute gaps.
You better check that, the Outer in the morning has over 30 trains with 3m gaps and maybe half that number in the afternoon.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Linto63 »

Glen wrote: On that basis the T4 is a combination of three lines, Cronulla, Waterfall and Illawarra Locals.
The Cronulla and Waterfall lines merge at Sutherland, much earlier in their journeys than where the T2/T3/T8 lines merge.
Glen wrote: Also the City Outer & City Inner do not run constant 3 minutes frequencies, as there are regular 6 minute gaps.
Trip planner says differently, have a look at services between Wynyard and Circular Quay between 0800 and 0900 and 1700 and 1800 and you will see services operate at 3 minute frequencies.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Transtopic »

The only way to avoid disruptions to multiple lines arising from an incident on the Sydney Trains network is to have separate lines for every branch running into the CBD plus dedicated lines for Intercity, Regional and Freight, which clearly isn't sustainable. With such low density in the outer suburbs, branching is the only solution. This could be the case for metro as well. I'm sceptical of whether the existing metro line and its extension to Bankstown will ever utilise its full capacity of 30tph, particularly on the Bankstown Line. Branching could have made a difference .
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:42 pm I'm sceptical of whether the existing metro line and its extension to Bankstown will ever utilise its full capacity of 30tph, particularly on the Bankstown Line. Branching could have made a difference .
When it's extended to Liverpool and people from that region discover that they can get to Sydney in 40 minutes rather than the 55-60 minutes it presently takes, there'll be plenty of demand on the Bankstown line I can assure you. Metro planning thinks ahead to the whole complete network, not just to where intermediate stages finish. Something mightn't superficially make sense now, but it makes sense in the complete scheme.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:25 pm
Transtopic wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:42 pm I'm sceptical of whether the existing metro line and its extension to Bankstown will ever utilise its full capacity of 30tph, particularly on the Bankstown Line. Branching could have made a difference .
When it's extended to Liverpool and people from that region discover that they can get to Sydney in 40 minutes rather than the 55-60 minutes it presently takes, there'll be plenty of demand on the Bankstown line I can assure you. Metro planning thinks ahead to the whole complete network, not just to where intermediate stages finish. Something mightn't superficially make sense now, but it makes sense in the complete scheme.
Depends on whether it ever eventuates. Nothing is certain in this world. Even if the Bankstown Line had remained part of the existing network and been upgraded and extended to Liverpool with an all stations service similar to the metro, it would also have reduced journey times by a significant margin.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by boronia »

Extent of disruption during Sydney rail line upgrade hinges on ‘trade-offs’

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ext ... 5dcud.html
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