Rail Observations 2023

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boxythingy
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by boxythingy »

I hope they will not revert to a timetable where trains are more infrequent just so there's more slack built in such that the figures will look better.

Will there even be enough crew to run all the current amount of T8 services+ additional ones once the signalling upgrades have been complete in the Airport tunnel? Hope they are training enough people well before the current worker shortage, or do people naturally drop out from rail school? Sick of waiting at that run down Glenfield station held together with duct tape left right and centre that is referred to as an "interchange stop" for 15min because the last train was late by 1-2mins on the heavily congested South line.

Revesby is no better. Train to the city pulls into Platform 1, and by the time you run over to Platform 3, the train doors start to close, meaning an extra 15min wait just to travel an additional up to 8min to Padstow, Riverwood or Narwee. It's a planned nuisance, just look at the timetable or try it yourself. No alternative modes like buses either.

In relation to M and H sets, there's no need to run 8 car sets, all stops after 7:30pm Sundays on the T8, run them express to Revesby from Central(i), front 4 cars continue onward to Macarthur, meaning you can slightly increase the service frequencies on the return legs back into the city, join them back up at Revesby (if an ex 4 car Macarthur and newly divided 4 car ex City happen to meet up) or at Central(i), and start a new Nightride shuttle/direct people onto L2/3 to take people between Haymarket and Circular Quay. You might as well do this since the current timetable allows up to 10min waits at Glenfield or Revesby for NSW TrainLink Regional trains to pass through :roll:
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Merc1107 »

Geo101 wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:52 pm iii) 2017 Timetable – TfNSW led the development of the new 2017 timetable. The 2017 timetable was designed to achieve maximum utilisation of the network with expected increasing patronage. However, the tight nature of the timetable created difficulties in maintaining services, restricted access to undertake maintenance and capital works and reduced the capacity for the network to recover from degraded operations.
I was under the impression (from the general consensus in these threads) that the timetables were too slack and unnecessarily slowing down people's journeys. It obviously can't be both, so which is it?
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Transtopic »

boxythingy wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:10 pm I hope they will not revert to a timetable where trains are more infrequent just so there's more slack built in such that the figures will look better.
That would be a backward step, just papering over the cracks. Aside from catching up on the maintenance backlog, what is needed is more funding to increase the rail capacity through renewal of obsolete infrastructure, amplifications, junction remodelling, signalling upgrades etc, to an adequate level to enable a desired timetable to operate efficiently. There's no point in trying to run more services when the rail infrastructure available is unable to handle it, especially if it's not properly maintained or renewed.

However, that's not going to happen overnight and won't come cheaply. It has been neglected for far too long by governments of both persuasions and now the chickens are coming home to roost. It can no longer be ignored. The lessons of the failure of the Askin/Lewis/Willis government to adequately maintain the rail network, which was a contributing factor in the Granville rail disaster, haven't been learned.

Regardless of the justification for new metro lines, it's a questionable argument whether that alone will resolve the poor operational performance of the existing Sydney Trains network. It's a flawed strategy and a far greater commitment is needed to also fund upgrades, alongside proposed metro projects. If that means some metro projects may be delayed or cancelled, then so be it.
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boxythingy
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by boxythingy »

I was under the impression (from the general consensus in these threads) that the timetables were too slack and unnecessarily slowing down people's journeys. It obviously can't be both, so which is it?
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by alleve »

Merc1107 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:04 am
Geo101 wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:52 pm iii) 2017 Timetable – TfNSW led the development of the new 2017 timetable. The 2017 timetable was designed to achieve maximum utilisation of the network with expected increasing patronage. However, the tight nature of the timetable created difficulties in maintaining services, restricted access to undertake maintenance and capital works and reduced the capacity for the network to recover from degraded operations.
I was under the impression (from the general consensus in these threads) that the timetables were too slack and unnecessarily slowing down people's journeys. It obviously can't be both, so which is it?
It is a bit of both. Some parts of the timetable are too tight, some are too slack. The parts that are too tight are the parts that don't get complained about on here.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:09 am The lessons of the failure of the Askin/Lewis/Willis government to adequately maintain the rail network, which was a contributing factor in the Granville rail disaster, haven't been learned.
You're very good at deflecting out of partisanship. The finding was that the track had been improperly fastened. The Wran government had been in office for eight months when the accident happened. I know it's fashionable to blame the previous government when something goes wrong and we're getting a rerun of that now of course.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by alleve »

tonyp wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 1:13 am
Transtopic wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:09 am The lessons of the failure of the Askin/Lewis/Willis government to adequately maintain the rail network, which was a contributing factor in the Granville rail disaster, haven't been learned.
You're very good at deflecting out of partisanship. The finding was that the track had been improperly fastened. The Wran government had been in office for eight months when the accident happened. I know it's fashionable to blame the previous government when something goes wrong and we're getting a rerun of that now of course.
We're getting a rerun of that because the previous government actually was responsible. Unless all the incidents that occurred before the election are somehow Chris Minns' fault?
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 4:20 pm We're getting a rerun of that because the previous government actually was responsible. Unless all the incidents that occurred before the election are somehow Chris Minns' fault?
It's not a rerun because the events today were clearly during the previous government.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by alleve »

tonyp wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:04 pm
alleve wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 4:20 pm We're getting a rerun of that because the previous government actually was responsible. Unless all the incidents that occurred before the election are somehow Chris Minns' fault?
It's not a rerun because the events today were clearly during the previous government.
You very quickly went from "we're getting a rerun" to "we're not getting a rerun"
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:06 pm
You very quickly went from "we're getting a rerun" to "we're not getting a rerun"
I wasn't referring to the Sydney Trains issues since 2017 but to the more general assertions by the present government blaming trains that don't fit on tracks, ferries that don't fit under bridges etc.

Considering the report found that the unions had a significant role in the train performance issues, it's interesting that the Minister conceded that she's not going to defend the unions.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by boxythingy »

...Some parts of the timetable are too tight, some are too slack. The parts that are too tight are the parts that don't get complained about on here.
I wonder how well the general customer would feel about waiting consistently 5min at Glenfield rather than supposedly most of the time 1min, sometimes 6min, and other times 12min, for example. It already takes people longer to go to Casula and beyond compared to when trains ran directly from Macarthur/Campbelltown when the off peak frequency for the Airport line was actually 1 train every 30min pre-2017 :shock:
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

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AURIZON.....
Full page ads (SMH 22.5.23) and prime time TV......A sceptic would suspect they're up to something.....
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Linto63 »

Raising brand awareness ahead of a share issue? The $2 billion One Rail Australia purchase would have put a fair bit of debt on the balance sheet. Plenty of adds on the telly as well.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Transtopic »

I have now read the full Sydney Trains Review and the one thing that stands out is the governance issues, or lack of them, and its relationship with the other agencies within the transport cluster.

The Chief Executive of Sydney Trains reports to the Deputy Secretary - Greater Sydney and the Chief Executive of NSW Trainlink reports to the Deputy Secretary - Regional and Outer Metropolitan (ROM). Both Deputies report to the Secretary of TfNSW. The Review recommended that Sydney Trains report directly to the Secretary of TfNSW and that consideration be given to the same line of governance for NSW Trainlink. A further recommendation was for Sydney Trains to take over operational responsibility for NSW Trainlink's Intercity network.

Other notable recommendations are for Sydney Trains to take back responsibility from TfNSW for timetable development and to be consulted for input, including from other stakeholders and unions, into the design and delivery of new rolling stock and infrastructure upgrades. Had this been the case, then the NIF and CAF Regional Train debacles could have been avoided, with all of the issues being sorted out beforehand. Sydney Trains has been operating with one hand tied behind its back and seemingly has been pushed further back from the frontline.

Interestingly, Sydney Metro does not report directly to the Secretary of TfNSW, but is a separate entity with its own Board of Directors, which reports directly to the Transport Minister. A bit of ideological favoritism I suggest. We'll see whether this survives the Sydney Metro Review.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

It would be wrong to put timetabling back in the hands of individual operators without TfNSW oversight. A successful transit system based on interchange needs central oversight of timetabling. The worse thing would be for all these functions to devolve back into operator silos and customers are dumped back into the old world of missed connections and long waits between trip segments.

The only ideology I see around the traps at present is the almost religious devotion to the double deck suburban system, rather than open mindedness to finding the best solution for the circumstances. At least the previous local example of zealotry that plagued us and held development back for years - that buses are "better" than trams - has faded into history, though we're still stuck with the monohull ferries vs cats madness. I'd rather that gunzels stuck to terrorising museums rather than the general public who just want to get to where they want to go the best way possible.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Nat »

tonyp wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:27 am It would be wrong to put timetabling back in the hands of individual operators without TfNSW oversight. A successful transit system based on interchange needs central oversight of timetabling. The worse thing would be for all these functions to devolve back into operator silos and customers are dumped back into the old world of missed connections and long waits between trip segments.

The only ideology I see around the traps at present is the almost religious devotion to the double deck suburban system, rather than open mindedness to finding the best solution for the circumstances. At least the previous local example of zealotry that plagued us and held development back for years - that buses are "better" than trams - has faded into history, though we're still stuck with the monohull ferries vs cats madness. I'd rather that gunzels stuck to terrorising museums rather than the general public who just want to get to where they want to go the best way possible.
Not working at present. Many instances of where a train is pulling into a station and you watch the connecting bus pull out..... Or the reverse.
Peak and non peak. Weekday and weekend. Deliberate design to discourage PT usage. Force pax to wait 15-30 mins for the next service.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Merc1107 »

Nat wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:38 am Deliberate design to discourage PT usage.
Let's not jump to conclusions.

Do the shifts printed for the buses indicate the presence of a connection, and what time it arrives?
Is there any real-time communication to drivers that the service they're connecting with is late, and consequently, that they should wait?
Are the bus timetables and/or shifts poorly constructed and missing connections, or padding times out so a bus is arriving really early, and just missing a train, which wasn't the one they meant to connect with?
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

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Problem is there are dozens of potential connections for most train services during the day, and they cannot all be met. Some will have to lose. I would suggest that the higher patronage ones should be prioritised. Moving service times to accomodate connections generally has a direct impact on operating costs and other services that operate on the rail network. It is always a fine balancing act.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by moa999 »


Transtopic wrote:I have now read the full Sydney Trains Review and the one thing that stands out is the governance issues, or lack of them, and its relationship with the other agencies within the transport cluster.
Any comments on TAHE and how/ where it reports.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote: The Review recommended that Sydney Trains report directly to the Secretary of TfNSW and that consideration be given to the same line of governance for NSW Trainlink.
If more focus was put on delivering the product rather than shuffling who wears which hat yet again, maybe something positive would end up being done.
Transtopic wrote: A further recommendation was for Sydney Trains to take over operational responsibility for NSW Trainlink's Intercity network.
Effectively reverting back to the same split as was the case with CityRail and CountryLink.
tonyp wrote: It would be wrong to put timetabling back in the hands of individual operators without TfNSW oversight.
Happens already, private bus operators set their own timetables.
Aurora wrote: Problem is there are dozens of potential connections for most train services during the day, and they cannot all be met. Some will have to lose.
Exactly it's a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:17 pm Happens already, private bus operators set their own timetables.
But they have to be approved by TfNSW.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Fleet Lists »

What are the criteria for which they need to be approved? I have known of bus timetables NOT being approved when they did not meet the frequencies specified in their contracts. But are "Connections" also a criteria?
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Linto63 »

Regardless of the structure over the decades, the timetable process has been that the rail and ferry operators of the day set their timetable and then the bus operators set theirs to co-ordinate. While TfNSW may be the facilitator, the industry has always been able to work it out. Every change has consequence and effect, so sometimes one change that will be positive for one connection may be detrimental to another. I am sure there have been instances where working connections get broken. But more advanced IT systems should be better placed to mitigate.

If TfNSW is doing its job properly, it would require that operators provide justification for each change, lest the operators start gaming the system, e.g. introducing padding to reduce late running due to reasons within their control. But given that most of the people who could spot that have probably been moved on and the work contracted out to the PwCs of this world, who knows.
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by Transtopic »

moa999 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:53 am
Transtopic wrote:I have now read the full Sydney Trains Review and the one thing that stands out is the governance issues, or lack of them, and its relationship with the other agencies within the transport cluster.
Any comments on TAHE and how/ where it reports.
Quote from the Review -

"ii) TAHE – a NSW State Owned Corporation (SOC), governed by a Board of Directors appointed by, and accountable to, the shareholding Ministers (the Treasurer and Minister for Finance). The Transport Secretary is an ex officio member of the TAHE Board."
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Re: Rail Observations 2023

Post by boronia »

Linto63 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 4:32 pm Regardless of the structure over the decades, the timetable process has been that the rail and ferry operators of the day set their timetable and then the bus operators set theirs to co-ordinate. While TfNSW may be the facilitator, the industry has always been able to work it out. Every change has consequence and effect, so sometimes one change that will be positive for one connection may be detrimental to another. I am sure there have been instances where working connections get broken. But more advanced IT systems should be better placed to mitigate.

If TfNSW is doing its job properly, it would require that operators provide justification for each change, lest the operators start gaming the system, e.g. introducing padding to reduce late running due to reasons within their control. But given that most of the people who could spot that have probably been moved on and the work contracted out to the PwCs of this world, who knows.
A lot of that harks back to the days when train services were infrequent and buses radiated out from stations to suburban "dead ends".

A lot of bus routes now connect multiple stations, so can be difficult to align at both ends of a trip. Frequent train services and bus services with longer hours have reduced the need for precise connections. The increase in suburban shopping outlets with late opening hours can reduce direct connections.
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