2023 NSW Election

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:29 pm I won't let you wriggle out of that response so easily. We were specifically discussing the NW metro
I wasn't. I was talking about the concept of metro in Sydney in general. That's why I moved to this thread.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:16 pm They could've run the best campaign in history and they still would've lost. The Libs were damaged goods, both federal and state. It's arguably even worse now that Dutton is at the helm, although I don't think they expect to have any chance of taking down Albo in his first term anyway. The long list of scandals, between Perrottet's nazi uniform, Barilaro's pork barrelling and misuse of the fixated persons unit, Glady's ICAC hearings, the Barilaro NY trade job, David Elliott's defence of strip searches and his road rage incident when he impersonated a police officer, etc, made it impossible to get re-elected. The public perception of the Liberal Party was tarnished beyond repair.
This was all superficial stuff around the edges though and a large proportion of voters were not swayed by that. The Coalition's running of the country, in one case, and the state in the other was fine, especially considering the pandemic in the middle of it all.

One issue for conservatives is that free-thinking is embedded in their philosophy, so they're prone to runaway elements within their governments and, depending who's their leader, the risk of not being able to keep control of that. Look at the way Kean was running his own agenda within the party in NSW once Perrottet became leader. Labor, like any party of the left, philosophically believes in subjugating the individual to the party line, so typically has more unity. If you're not fully behind it, you get the chop. Their leaders, with a couple of past exceptions (notably Hawke, their best in modern times), tend to lack personality and independent leadership qualities and what they say is tightly managed. Minns' stilted cardboard-cutout presentation reminds me of the debate many years ago about Labor's "faceless men" who controlled their politicians from behind the scenes.

In NSW, Labor has come to the election without any policies and many voters seem to have ignored that, distracted by the issues you mention. But when you look at the figures, it's not a decisive result. Voters - as always in recent years - are typically divided around 50/50 between Labor and Coalition. What tips the balance is all the minor parties and independents that have emerged to hold balance-of-power seats in parliaments - no less than six groups or individuals in NSW. There are two good Ministers in the new cabinet, Scully and Park from Wollongong, but they're in charge of Planning and Health. Unfortunately for our own area of interest, the new Transport Minister is an even worse example of a puppet on a string without any clue of her own. It has been a very dynamic decade for transport in NSW. It'll be a tragedy if that's chopped at the knees when the program of growth and improvement is still in full flow. If it drops off, the planning objectives won't be met and we'll see problems again for how Sydney manages its functionality and growth - like during most of the previous 60 years.
Last edited by tonyp on Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tonyp
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:25 am Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage
The RTBU will be Haylen's new puppet master, wait and see.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by boronia »

Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage
And how long would that take to implement? At what cost to break contracts?

Perhaps the RTBU is more concerned about ending its membership shortage?
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tonyp
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:37 am
Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage
And how long would that take to implement? At what cost to break contracts?

Perhaps the RTBU is more concerned about ending its membership shortage?
Perhaps they're looking at the recent South Australia "solution" where the staff become public servants again, the state takes back the risk (placing it on the shoulders of taxpayers), but the private operator continues with the operation and maintenance. Then when the state suddenly discovers that it can't provide enough drivers, the private operator will sue them for breach of contract.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

boronia wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:37 am
Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage
And how long would that take to implement? At what cost to break contracts?

Perhaps the RTBU is more concerned about ending its membership shortage?
Or this could be a way for the RTBU to get the TWU off their turf
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 am
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:25 am Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage
The RTBU will be Haylen's new puppet master, wait and see.
Isn't that the entire premise of the Labor party movement, to be affiliated with the unions?
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:06 pm Isn't that the entire premise of the Labor party movement, to be affiliated with the unions?
Yes, but in Parliament they're supposed to represent the public who voted for them. The unions barely represent 10-15% of the workforce, let alone the voting public.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:29 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:06 pm Isn't that the entire premise of the Labor party movement, to be affiliated with the unions?
Yes, but in Parliament they're supposed to represent the public who voted for them. The unions barely represent 10-15% of the workforce, let alone the voting public.
The public sector is highly unionised it's the private sector unions that have the membership issues
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by alleve »

tonyp wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:32 am
alleve wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:16 pm They could've run the best campaign in history and they still would've lost. The Libs were damaged goods, both federal and state. It's arguably even worse now that Dutton is at the helm, although I don't think they expect to have any chance of taking down Albo in his first term anyway. The long list of scandals, between Perrottet's nazi uniform, Barilaro's pork barrelling and misuse of the fixated persons unit, Glady's ICAC hearings, the Barilaro NY trade job, David Elliott's defence of strip searches and his road rage incident when he impersonated a police officer, etc, made it impossible to get re-elected. The public perception of the Liberal Party was tarnished beyond repair.
This was all superficial stuff around the edges though and a large proportion of voters were not swayed by that. The Coalition's running of the country, in one case, and the state in the other was fine, especially considering the pandemic in the middle of it all.

One issue for conservatives is that free-thinking is embedded in their philosophy, so they're prone to runaway elements within their governments and, depending who's their leader, the risk of not being able to keep control of that. Look at the way Kean was running his own agenda within the party in NSW once Perrottet became leader. Labor, like any party of the left, philosophically believes in subjugating the individual to the party line, so typically has more unity. If you're not fully behind it, you get the chop. Their leaders, with a couple of past exceptions (notably Hawke, their best in modern times), tend to lack personality and independent leadership qualities and what they say is tightly managed. Minns' stilted cardboard-cutout presentation reminds me of the debate many years ago about Labor's "faceless men" who controlled their politicians from behind the scenes.

In NSW, Labor has come to the election without any policies and many voters seem to have ignored that, distracted by the issues you mention. But when you look at the figures, it's not a decisive result. Voters - as always in recent years - are typically divided around 50/50 between Labor and Coalition. What tips the balance is all the minor parties and independents that have emerged to hold balance-of-power seats in parliaments - no less than six groups or individuals in NSW. There are two good Ministers in the new cabinet, Scully and Park from Wollongong, but they're in charge of Planning and Health. Unfortunately for our own area of interest, the new Transport Minister is an even worse example of a puppet on a string without any clue of her own. It has been a very dynamic decade for transport in NSW. It'll be a tragedy if that's chopped at the knees when the program of growth and improvement is still in full flow. If it drops off, the planning objectives won't be met and we'll see problems again for how Sydney manages its functionality and growth - like during most of the previous 60 years.
Some of it is superficial, some of it raises major questions about whether the Liberals are fit to govern. More importantly the Liberals were deeply unpopular and no matter what they did they would have lost.

I haven't seen anything from Jo Haylen to suggest she'll been bad or good. It hasn't even been a month.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:59 pm I haven't seen anything from Jo Haylen to suggest she'll been bad or good. It hasn't even been a month.
I've been following her for a while. No depth, no indication of understanding anything much, no policy, just the usual "trains that won't fit through tunnels, ferries that won't fit under bridges" sloganeering. If I were to define the polar opposite of Gladys, who is a complete intellectual and competent economist, it would be Jo. Heaven knows what we're in for and who will be her puppeteers. She will be putty in the hands of anybody dealing with her - TfNSW, the unions. She was an Arts graduate, no real-life experience background like a lot of Labor MPs who are typically public service or union background, worked for Albanese and Gillard, on Marrickville Council. Still, we've had the likes of Carl Scully who said that he couldn't get out of bed in the morning to face transport, so it could be worse. Yes, wait and see. There's always the unexpected miracle.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:32 pm
alleve wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:59 pm I haven't seen anything from Jo Haylen to suggest she'll been bad or good. It hasn't even been a month.
I've been following her for a while. No depth, no indication of understanding anything much, no policy, just the usual "trains that won't fit through tunnels, ferries that won't fit under bridges" sloganeering. If I were to define the polar opposite of Gladys, who is a complete intellectual and competent economist, it would be Jo. Heaven knows what we're in for and who will be her puppeteers. She will be putty in the hands of anybody dealing with her - TfNSW, the unions. She was an Arts graduate, no real-life experience background like a lot of Labor MPs who are typically public service or union background, worked for Albanese and Gillard, on Marrickville Council. Still, we've had the likes of Carl Scully who said that he couldn't get out of bed in the morning to face transport, so it could be worse. Yes, wait and see. There's always the unexpected miracle.
Don't worry Tony, the sky isn't going to fall in with those terrible Labor barbarians now in power. Yes, it would be a good idea to wait and see how the new government performs before casting judgement. Past performance is no indicator of how a new government will perform, particularly after 12 years. Just accept the fact that the electorate has spoken and your lot lost. Transport wasn't the major issue.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Jo could be premier by 2027 knowing the recent history when it comes to the NSW premier we have had 8 premiers in almost 2 decades
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Enviro 500 »

alleve wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:16 pm
tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:51 pm The Liberals in particular were not selling themselves well enough and Perrottet, though good himself, was not fully in control of the Cabinet, some of whom were getting well out of line. This didn't create a positive public perception.
They could've run the best campaign in history and they still would've lost. The Libs were damaged goods, both federal and state. It's arguably even worse now that Dutton is at the helm, although I don't think they expect to have any chance of taking down Albo in his first term anyway. The long list of scandals, between Perrottet's nazi uniform, Barilaro's pork barrelling and misuse of the fixated persons unit, Glady's ICAC hearings, the Barilaro NY trade job, David Elliott's defence of strip searches and his road rage incident when he impersonated a police officer, etc, made it impossible to get re-elected. The public perception of the Liberal Party was tarnished beyond repair.
The death knell for the Coalition was the anti protest bill that seems modelled after Hong Kong's national security bill. It made Perrottet look like a Chinese communist dictator.

Whoever Minns is leaning on for supply and confidence should push him to repeal the anti protest legislation. Oh, and #DefundThePolice while at it.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Merc1107 »

Enviro 500 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:44 pm Oh, and #DefundThePolice while at it.
Go spend some time around our northernmost capital and see how your opinion on that changes...
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:32 amOne issue for conservatives is that free-thinking is embedded in their philosophy, so they're prone to runaway elements within their governments and, depending who's their leader, the risk of not being able to keep control of that. Look at the way Kean was running his own agenda within the party in NSW once Perrottet became leader. Labor, like any party of the left, philosophically believes in subjugating the individual to the party line, so typically has more unity. If you're not fully behind it, you get the chop. Their leaders, with a couple of past exceptions (notably Hawke, their best in modern times), tend to lack personality and independent leadership qualities and what they say is tightly managed. Minns' stilted cardboard-cutout presentation reminds me of the debate many years ago about Labor's "faceless men" who controlled their politicians from behind the scenes.
This was something I wanted to touch on before as I found it intriguing - different approaches to the same end, that being an avoidance of tearing their political movement apart.

It appears having an 'enforceable' party line saves splintering and inconsistency within the party which would inevitably cause headaches when the general public don't know what a party (in this instance, Labor, The Greens) stands for; in essence avoiding the problem of a house divided against itself. On the other hand, the approach taken by the Liberals appears to be trying to avoid splintering the movement into distinct minorities who hold little chance of holding any substantial majority in Government. Although with this stance, it's hard not to consider the independents as renegades rather than a viable alternative.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

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Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:25 am Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage
How bus drivers will magically re-appear should this actually happen remains to be seen, but I can't see the bus driver shortage being reversed solely as a result of the state taking back specific bus operations (presumably they mean regions 6,7,8 and 9).
"It's my way or the (side of the) highway".
Might be a way to lead life, but more like the way that some people drive.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Enviro 500 »

Merc1107 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:30 pm
Enviro 500 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:44 pm Oh, and #DefundThePolice while at it.
Go spend some time around our northernmost capital and see how your opinion on that changes...
https://youtu.be/s0n9CfrYohs
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Enviro 500 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 10:53 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:30 pm
Go spend some time around our northernmost capital and see how your opinion on that changes...
https://youtu.be/s0n9CfrYohs
A man comparing the state governments of Australia to the CCP aswell as supporting the greens and those 3 cop killing monsters wow that's one crazy person
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by HunterLine5 »

She was up here in Newcastle last week looking at the Heritage Collection stored at Broadmeadow, and was asked by a Newcastle Herald reporter about this subject, to which she categorically ruled out tearing up the local contract with K.D. She went on to use the escape about some task force to improve services, we will see!. :|
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

How far would the RTBU go when it comes to this bringing buses back into public hands thing will it just be trying to bring regions 6-9 back or will they try to also bring the other greater Sydney bus contracts into public hands
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by tonyp »

Look to the outcome negotiated in South Australia where the drivers become public servants and the operators continue operation and maintenance for agreed periods. The RTBU was involved in that too. Governments are over a barrel because there's no cheap way out of contracts that were saving them money, so they lose that benefit too. In the end, taxpayers pay for indulging the unions. Lucky the Feds are now increasing in the income tax burden on everybody to help pay for these indulgences.
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: There's no certainty that it was coming to an end. They were a government that had momentum. They would have kept on working on it one way or the other.
The world had changed, the tock bottom interest rates we have had for the past 15 years are gone. There is a limit as to how much can be borrowed before the government's credit rating would be downgraded, which would push up the cost of servicing the existing debt.
tonyp wrote: It was recycling assets anyway, not selling them.
Selling assets outright or on 99 year leases, it is the same thing as far as the voters are concerned. Whoever buys wants a return for which consumers, i.e. the voters, pay.
tonyp wrote: The Liberals in particular were not selling themselves well enough and Perrottet, though good himself, was not fully in control of the Cabinet, some of whom were getting well out of line. This didn't create a positive public perception.
The toxicity around the Liberals was all of their own doing. Perrottet was a part of the problem.
Linto63 wrote: There you go again. Familiarise yourself with all the planning documentation.
You still have yet to make a convincing case for spending $100 million on a business case for something that is unlikely to be built.
alleve wrote: They could've run the best campaign in history and they still would've lost. The Libs were damaged goods, both federal and state.
Exactly
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Just heard on the radio that the RTBU has a meeting with the new transport minister where the union will ask to reverse the bus privatisation because they think that placing the buses back into public hands will end the driver shortage.
Won't be happening, unless the operators make a complete hash of it, bus operations isn't going to be brought back in house.
tonyp wrote: The RTBU will be Haylen's new puppet master, wait and see.
Based on your rather poor doom and gloom prediction record, we need not be too worried.
Merc1107 wrote: Isn't that the entire premise of the Labor party movement, to be affiliated with the unions?
Back in the day, yes, but with trade union membership only a fraction of what it was, not anymore. The swinging voters in the middle are largely not trade union members.
tonyp wrote: I've been following her for a while. No depth, no indication of understanding anything much, no policy, just the usual "trains that won't fit through tunnels, ferries that won't fit under bridges" sloganeering.
Negative politics, that's what opposition parties do now, it is not about engaging in a high level debate, but about getting soundbites that will resonate with voters who are not interested in details. Liberals are doing so at a federal level and now will do so in NSW.
tonyp wrote: Gladys, who is a complete intellectual and competent economist
But a less than honourable person as the ICAC report will show when published in 2047.
Transtopic wrote: Don't worry Tony, the sky isn't going to fall in with those terrible Labor barbarians now in power....
Agree, by all means tip the bucket on them when they do make mistakes, but base it on something contemporary rather than what happened 20 or 50 years ago.
Campbelltown busboy wrote: How far would the RTBU go when it comes to this bringing buses back into public hands thing will it just be trying to bring regions 6-9 back or will they try to also bring the other greater Sydney bus contracts into public hands
None of the above, it won't be happening,
tonyp wrote: Lucky the Feds are now increasing in the income tax burden on everybody to help pay for these indulgences.
You do realise the end of the tax offset is a result of what the Morrison government legislated?
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Re: 2023 NSW Election

Post by Enviro 500 »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:54 am
Enviro 500 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 10:53 pm
https://youtu.be/s0n9CfrYohs
A man comparing the state governments of Australia to the CCP aswell as supporting the greens and those 3 cop killing monsters wow that's one crazy person
The way NSWPOL treated Violet Coco proves nothing much has changed since the heyday of Dodger Rogerson. But I digress.
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