Tram on Bell Street

[Myrtone]

The Northern suburbs are currently devoid of East-West tram routes. Two tram routes currently terminate at Bell street, which will soon be level crossing free.
A line along Bell Street has been proposed before, at least back in the M&MTB era but with both Bell street level crossings now grade separated, could the proposal appear again?
If it becomes a reality, then this line, not counting tram extensions into Docklands, will be the first new extension of Melbourne's tramway network in decades that will cross a railway, let alone two railways.

[1whoknows]

All tram routes in the northern suburbs are north- south. Bell Street runs east west. Have you ever been here?

[boronia]

Wasn't there once a Bell St Bus Service that was closed due to lack of patronage?

[MAN 16.242]

Wasn't there once a Bell St Bus Service that was closed due to lack of patronage?

Bell St Bus Company sold out to Dysons in 2003 who still run 513 along Bell St

[Myrtone]

Back in 2007, additional track in the northern suburbs was planned to connect the New Preston depot with routes 96, 1 & 8, and possibly route 19 and, in that case, also link Brunswick depot with routes 86 and 112. The track for a tram route along Bell street would double as such a link.

[PaxInfo]

There's no doubt that the north needs better east-west bus services but I'd have it running via Murray Rd and Northland rather than all on Bell St (although Bell St should still have a bus simpler and more frequent than the existing 513).

The Murray Rd bus could be a long hours bus route operating every 10 min 7 days. Scope exists to simplify existing routes rather than layer something new over the existing network, eg https://melbourneontransit.blogspot.com ... -part.html

[Myrtone]

How about at least one east-west tram service in the north?

[MAN 16.242]

How about at least one east-west tram service in the north?

How about no?

[Myrtone]

But currently there are only east-west bus services, not east-west tram services. Best to have at least one. Tracks for that route would double as a way to connect New Preston depot with routes 96, 1 & 8, and possibly route 19 and, in that case, also link Brunswick depot with routes 86 and 112.

[MAN 16.242]

But currently there are only east-west bus services, not east-west tram services. Best to have at least one. Tracks for that route would double as a way to connect New Preston depot with routes 96, 1 & 8, and possibly route 19 and, in that case, also link Brunswick depot with routes 86 and 112.

Having one for no reason other than "best have least one" is not a very good reason. Using that argument every suburb should have least one train, tram and a bus.

[Myrtone]

Well, there are other reasons; The northern suburbs need better east-west transit and this line would help, its tracks would also double as a cross town connection between north-south tram routes.
I'm not saying every suburb needs at least one tram train and one bus but the Northern suburbs (plural) only have north-south tram routes, not east-west ones. Having at least one somewhere in this area does seem better than only having north-south tram routes.

[MAN 16.242]

Well, there are other reasons; The northern suburbs need better east-west transit and this line would help, its tracks would also double as a cross town connection between north-south tram routes.
I'm not saying every suburb needs at least one tram train and one bus but the Northern suburbs (plural) only have north-south tram routes, not east-west ones. Having at least one somewhere in this area does seem better than only having north-south tram routes.

Well if need better east-west transit then start with upgrading existing buses.
Using your logical if there is an issue with service you build another mode over top of it, make no sense! I mean using that logical crowded trams should have a bus route over the top of it.

[Myrtone]

I have given three reasons:

• There are currently only north-south not east-west tram routes in the northern suburbs.
• The northern suburbs need better east-west transit
• The tracks for this route could also be a cross-town connection between north-south tram routes on opposite sides of Merri Creek.

Additional reasons are that part of Bell street is wide enough for median reserved tram track and that Bell street will soon be level crossing free, so it can be done without new tram squares.

[MAN 16.242]

I have given three reasons:

• There are currently only north-south not east-west tram routes in the northern suburbs.
• The northern suburbs need better east-west transit
• The tracks for this route could also be a cross-town connection between north-south tram routes on opposite sides of Merri Creek.

Additional reasons are that part of Bell street is wide enough for median reserved tram track and that Bell street will soon be level crossing free, so it can be done without new tram squares.

First reason is not really a reason to build a tram route. A route should built on need not just cause looks good on a map having a full grid.
Second reason already been covered but you seem to ignore buses.
Third such connection is simply not needed as across inner north many bus routes connect between such trams and such line is not needed for depot transfers etc.
Fourth reason just cause a road wide doesn't mean a tram line should be built.
Fifth reason just cause a level crossing removed is weak argument for whole new tram line to duplicate existing public transport services.

[Myrtone]

• I do not propose the route because it looks good on a map having a full grid
• I don't ignore buses but maybe a tram service would be a better, more attractive option than improving buses.
• Other connections have been considered but they were just for such transfers. Such transfers might be useful in the future. I would think case for building east-west tram tracks in the northern suburbs might be stronger if not just for these transfers.
• I don't mean that a road being wide enough means that a tram should be built, what I mean is a tram may well be better than a bus if there is room for reserved track in a median.

Not one of these reasons alone is enough to build this line, but a list of them might justify it when the money and resources are available.

[MAN 16.242]

• I do not propose the route because it looks good on a map having a full grid

A read of thread on Railpage suggest you do like see a map with full tram gird as you go on about as now have how should have least one East-West route and compare it to gird in south eastr

I don't ignore buses but maybe a tram service would be a better, more attractive option than improving buses.

A read of same thread on Railpage and here where say need for tram is cause need for better E-W transit suggest you do ignored buses since gone straight for building a new tram line and not improving existing buses.

[*]Other connections have been considered but they were just for such transfers. Such transfers might be useful in the future. I would think case for building east-west tram tracks in the northern suburbs might be stronger if not just for these transfers

Expect such connections simply not needed and can't be wasting money on tram line over top of buses (that can be improved) just please some gunzels

I don't mean that a road being wide enough means that a tram should be built, what I mean is a tram may well be better than a bus if there is room for reserved track in a median

Expect Bell St also has narrow parts so if it was replace existing buses you've not made things any better.

[Myrtone]

• There maybe some room for improvement to buses even if the tramline is built.
• Yet such connections were proposed before.
• Bell street may have narrow parts but the tram would not (just) run in those narrow parts and so would make things better. One idea is a line from Sydney road to Waterdale road, avoiding the narrow parts of Bell street. It could reach the station with a short section of track along Victoria street Coburg, as someone else suggested in that same thread.

[MAN 16.242]

• There maybe some room for improvement to buses even if the tramline is built.

Buses can be improved now and do not need wait for duplicated tram line to be built

[*]Yet such connections were proposed before.

There are dozen and dozen proposals over years doesn't mean all are need or or are the best of ideas

Bell street may have narrow parts but the tram would not (just) run in those narrow parts and so would make things better. One idea is a line from Sydney road to Waterdale road, avoiding the narrow parts of Bell street. It could reach the station with a short section of track along Victoria street Coburg, as someone else suggested in that same thread

Stopping at Waterdale Rd is weak terminus thus your tram line offer every little over existing bus service as people would then need change to the bus anyway to get Heidelberg station

[Myrtone]

I realise that none of these reasons alone is enough of a reason to build this line, but I was thinking that list of reason together could justify it once the money is there to do it.

Perhaps that new route could turn off Bell and run to Northland.

[boronia]

All you have to do is convince PTV.

[MAN 16.242]

I realise that none of these reasons alone is enough of a reason to build this line, but I was thinking that list of reason together could justify it once the money is there to do it.

Perhaps that new route could turn off Bell and run to Northland.

So now you want to be like the bus and duplicate it all way to Northland. I'm sure much important projects than Bell St tram line just fulfil a gunzels dream

[system improver]

In 1950, the then operator of the Bell Street bus route (a partnership of Bill King Snr and Wally Laidlaw) offered to sell to MMTB for £20,000 but the Board declined. It would have been MMTB buses, not trams. Instead, the Board went into the West Heidelberg area in 1956 and in 1961 purchased the City to Doncaster, Warrandyte, Ringwood, Box Hill services of Percy Withers for £100,000.

[Myrtone]

So now you want to be like the bus and duplicate it all way to Northland. I'm sure much important projects than Bell St tram line just fulfil a gunzels dream

What do you mean "much important projects than Bell St tram line just fulfil a gunzels dream"?

[MAN 16.242]

So now you want to be like the bus and duplicate it all way to Northland. I'm sure much important projects than Bell St tram line just fulfil a gunzels dream

What do you mean "much important projects than Bell St tram line just fulfil a gunzels dream"?

Well if you look at any outer suburbs you'll notice a lack of public transport
Go to the middle suburbs you'll notice often bus services not changed in years and not meeting community needs
Go to the inner suburbs you'll notice service with overcrowding as services not kepted but with growth with inner city apartment
If look at train network find much still lack turn up and go frequencies.

All off theses are much more important than Bell St tram link to duplicate buses, and as it's only gunzels suggesting it a Bell St tram line is really nothing more than a gunzel dream than a public transport project that comes anywhere close to being a priority

[Myrtone]

I'm not saying there are not more important things that the Bell street tram line, but that does not make a Bell street tram line completely unimportant.