Railway Observations for 2022.

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Glen
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Glen »

tonyp wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:45 am
The Endeavour doesn't spend long at Wollongong because it's back at Kiama at 0319 (presumably having run empty from Wollongong yet again tagging along with an Oscar) to start again for the day. If there's a competition for a wasted dead running award, this one would be on the list. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just send a maintenance team down to Kiama in a truck every night?
I'll see your Bomaderry to Wollongong and raise you a Scone to Newcastle and back next morning.

Now I may be surprised but I doubt those Scone passenger runs are anything much more than just timetabled repositioning trips.

I've often thought that the last train to Scone and Dungog could stable overnight and start the first train back next day with the crew "going to barracks", i.e. staying in a motel.

For that to work of course the train would need to be there longer than the time required to stable it, secure it, book off and start it up next day.

In the case of Bomaderry there wouldn't be enough time.

An interesting efficiency calculation in the Hunter though, I would have thought.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Transtopic »

Special_K wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:56 pm Rather than run empty to Dubbo, there is scope to operate a second daily service, departing Dubbo in the early AM and Sydney in the late afternoon. Up and down sets would cross at a convenient location between Bathurst and Orange.

This is a very simple suggestion and practical issues such as fleet type on a particular train would be required for seat bookings etc.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I calculate that there are currently the equivalent of 7x3 car Explorer services for the Northern Tablelands, Canberra and Broken Hill/Griffith services with a 1x2 car set for maintenance. A total of 23 cars, including a converted Endeavour set. Except for the Canberra Explorer, the makeup of each of the other Explorer consists can vary depending upon the demand.

The new CAF Short Regional sets will consist of 9x3 car sets and with one set for maintenance, that leaves a spare set for other services, such as a second daily service for Dubbo. I'm assuming that the current afternoon Dubbo XPT set, which is usually 4 cars, will be replaced by a 6 car Long Regional set, as it links up with the various road coach services from as far away as Broken Hill and Bourke. An early morning Dubbo service could be operated by a Short Regional set as it would basically be catering for local travellers. It would have to be timetabled to fit in with the Bathurst Bullet services for both the Up and Down journeys so that they don't overlap. The Bathurst Bullet services would be operated by the Regional Intercity sets and would be the only sets which would require dead running to and from Dubbo.

There has been agitation for a Bullet service to start from Orange and that could be the later service now departing Bathurst, but starting earlier at Orange. Orange would then have two morning services, including from Dubbo, and Bathurst three services, with equivalent afternoon and evening return services from Sydney. The Orange service would reduce the amount of dead running, but only marginally.

It's a shame that the government hasn't seen fit to order more Regional Train fleet sets to augment existing services and introduce new services, but that is still an option further down the track. I suggest that there would be the potential to increase the Canberra service to at least 4 trains each way per day; reinstate a daily afternoon Riverina Express service with 2x3 car Short Regional sets splitting at Junee to Albury and Griffith with morning return services, similar to the Northern Tablelands service; a second daily Long Regional Train Brisbane service similar to Melbourne; a thrice weekly Short Regional Train return service to Broken Hill, with connections to Adelaide; a Short Regional Train return service from Tamworth to Newcastle.
Last edited by Transtopic on Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BroadGauge
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by BroadGauge »

Glen wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:06 pmFor that to work of course the train would need to be there longer than the time required to stable it, secure it, book off and start it up next day.

In the case of Bomaderry there wouldn't be enough time.
The last arrival into Bomaderry each evening on a weekday timetable is at 9:31pm, and the first morning departure is at 4:05am, so that would seem like enough time for it to be worth leaving a train down there.

That really does seem like an abnormally early last train of the night though - there is a rail bus service provided in the late evening, but until 2004 the train service used to run later in the evening, until it was cut back to save money: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2004-05-18/ ... ry/1977676

If only they could do the same thing in the Southern Highlands, as it used to be great arriving at Campbelltown in the evening to find that the Endeavour had been cancelled due to a mechanical fault, and replaced by a coaching stopping only at Bowral, Mittagong and Moss Vale, which saved 20 minutes compared to the train ;)

Speaking of the time that it takes to stable a train and start it up again, I used to occasionally travel on the final Moss Vale service of the evening, arriving at 1:44am, which I presume as the last train in, would be the same set to form the 3:30am departure. Can't be long between the crew that stabled the train signing off, and the crew taking it out for the first run starting!

Based on that news article above about the subsidies for now cancelled late night trains to Bomaderry, I would hate to also think how heavily subsidised my trips on that late night Moss Vale service was subsidised, as the number of other passengers when I was using it in 2019/2020 fluctuated between 0-3.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Glen »

The timeframe you describe at Bomaderry would be insufficient if it was a Wollongong based crew staying overnight, but long enough if there were crews based at Bomaderry, however I presume the latter is not the case?
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gilberations
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by gilberations »

The Bomaderry / Hunter debate forgets one thing. Bomaderry is Sydney Trains controlled, the Hunter is not. Cheaper to keep a set moving that stable it
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by boronia »

Is their feral-proof storage at Bomaderry?
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

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gilberations wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:53 pm The Bomaderry / Hunter debate forgets one thing. Bomaderry is Sydney Trains controlled, the Hunter is not. Cheaper to keep a set moving that stable it
https://transportnsw.info/plan/help-wit ... ey-content shows both as NSW TrainLink
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Glen
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Glen »

boronia wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:58 pm Is their feral-proof storage at Bomaderry?
This is just a hypothetical debate.

Anything could be provided if it was cheaper overall.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Glen »

gilberations wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:53 pm Cheaper to keep a set moving that stable it
Not quite sure that I understand that.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by gilberations »

Fleet Lists wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:47 pm
gilberations wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:53 pm The Bomaderry / Hunter debate forgets one thing. Bomaderry is Sydney Trains controlled, the Hunter is not. Cheaper to keep a set moving that stable it
https://transportnsw.info/plan/help-wit ... ey-content shows both as NSW TrainLink
The track, not the train…
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gilberations
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by gilberations »

Glen wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:03 pm
gilberations wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:53 pm Cheaper to keep a set moving that stable it
Not quite sure that I understand that.
To stable the train costs more in labor than to run a service or empty train, plus’s access fees to use ARTC track to stable vs run
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boronia
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by boronia »

Track costs aside, there would be wage time for shunting, away-from-home allowances for crew, cost of accommodation. Maybe security for the train?
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Glen wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:44 pmIf you could upgrade the line to reduce that to 25 minutes you could run an hourly service all day with one set.
The Berry to Bomaderry line was recently upgraded with speed increases primarily to enable heavier Manildra freights. Double tracking of 4 kilometres is planned, this would facilitate an hourly service.
BroadGauge wrote: Speaking of the time that it takes to stable a train and start it up again, I used to occasionally travel on the final Moss Vale service of the evening, arriving at 1:44am, which I presume as the last train in, would be the same set to form the 3:30am departure. Can't be long between the crew that stabled the train signing off, and the crew taking it out for the first run starting!
Both may be worked by the same crew with a slightly longer than usual crib break.
Fleet Lists wrote: https://transportnsw.info/plan/help-wit ... ey-content shows both as NSW TrainLink
In theory NSW TrainLink is responsible for maintenance and access rights for the Berowrs - Newcastle, Emu Plains - Bowenfels and Waterfall - Bomaderry lines, although in practice it is actually Sydney Trains that performs these functions, hence why Sydney Trains plant and equipment can be seen working these stretches. Likewise Sydney Trains is responsible for maintaining the NSW TrainLink fleet including the XPTs.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Fleet Lists »

Yes I agree that refers to maintenance whereas the original post mentioned control which is a different thing.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by BroadGauge »

Not a great afternoon for the Southern Highlands line in terms of service delivery, with 6 southbound services cancelled due to crew shortages.

5 of the cancellations were Campbelltown - Moss Vale services that didn't run at all, and 1 was a Campbelltown - Goulburn service that was terminated at Moss Vale. Plus there were several northbound cancellations as well.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Glen »

Linto63 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:19 pm Both may be worked by the same crew with a slightly longer than usual crib break.
Presuming they are crewed by Moss Vale, I'd expect that logically one would be a PM sign off and the other an AM sign on.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by gilberations »

In theory NSW TrainLink is responsible for maintenance and access rights for the Berowrs - Newcastle, Emu Plains - Bowenfels and Waterfall - Bomaderry lines, although in practice it is actually Sydney Trains that performs these functions, hence why Sydney Trains plant and equipment can be seen working these stretches. Likewise Sydney Trains is responsible for maintaining the NSW TrainLink fleet including the XPTs.
Incorrect. NSW TrainLink own no infrastructure. In fact, the NIF and NRF purchase will be the only thing they own. NSW TrainLink is a service provider. All assets are leased from Sydney Trains, and the track/stations/rolling stock are owned by TAH and Maintenance is performed within the electrified area, and to Bomaderry, by Sydney Trains under contract from TAH.

It’s complicated I know, but it’s been that way since 2013
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Sydney Trains nor NSW TrainLink never owned infrastructure. It was initially all owned by RailCorp and then transferred Transport Asset Holding Entity. Doubt that the new rolling stock will become TrainLink assets, as the whole point of TAHE is to generate a revenue stream by leasing assets to the operators.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by ACM »

Track to the NW of Broadmedow is maintained by ARTC, likewise track south of Campbelltown & West of Wollongong. I forget where the border is on the Western line. The track inside of these boundaries (including Bommadery) are maintained by Sydney Trains - hence they are judge & jury with respect to how infrastructure & trains operate in this area.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

ACM wrote: I forget where the border is on the Western line.
Bowenfels where the wires end, although it has been decades since an electric train operated beyond Lithgow station.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

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Linto63 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:41 am
ACM wrote: I forget where the border is on the Western line.
Bowenfels where the wires end, although it has been decades since an electric train operated beyond Lithgow station.
West of Bowenfells is John Holland CRN, not ARTC.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

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gilberations wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:00 am
Linto63 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:41 am Bowenfels where the wires end, although it has been decades since an electric train operated beyond Lithgow station.
West of Bowenfells is John Holland CRN, not ARTC.
West of Bowenfels isn't John Holland, it's UGL Regional Linx now.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by gilberations »

I stand corrected, it’s been a few years for me
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boronia
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by boronia »

ARTC manages more than 8,500 route kilometres of track in New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Victoria and Western Australia. ARTC also manages the Hunter Valley coal rail network.

ARTC is responsible for:

Selling access to train operators
The development of new business
Capital investment in the network
Managing train operations
Maintaining the network.
So where does UGLRL fit into this? Just a subcontractor?
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by BroadGauge »

boronia wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:39 pm So where does UGLRL fit into this? Just a subcontractor?
They have the contract with the NSW Government to maintain and operate the Country Regional Network, which consists of the residual rail lines in NSW & ACT outside of the Greater Sydney network (operated by Sydney Trains, and entirely electrified aside from the Bomaderry line), or the interstate freight network as well as the Hunter Valley coal network, which are operated by ARTC under their contract.

ARTC don't have anything at all to do with CRN lines such as the one between Bowenfels and Parkes.
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