Ferry Observations for 2022,

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Randomness
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by Randomness »

Glen wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:21 am Do the Rivercats run to Watsons Bay very often?

I noticed Dawn Fraser on the 10:15 ex CQ today.
From experience, yes. I remember seeing a River Class and RiverCat on a Sunday too.

I also remember seeing a First Fleet on the F3 to Olympic Park on TripView, couldn’t confirm it however.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by Glen »

Randomness wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:34 pm
I also remember seeing a First Fleet on the F3 to Olympic Park on TripView, couldn’t confirm it however.
Thanks, interesting.

Would a First Fleet keep to time on an F3?

I understand they used to run the River back when the service only went to Meadowbank.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by eddy »

eddy wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:57 pm As it would cost too much to move the Cahill expressway perhaps the wharfs could be upgraded one at a time while creating more space next to the station by about 20m even with a roof with solar panels.
To upgrade the Quay perhaps the floating sections could be towed away for a paint job with the rigid sections lifted off the piles by a barge either side and moved sufficiently for a coffer dam so it can be put back on fill allowing the extra 20 metres of space north of the station.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by tonyp »

Fortunately I personally don't need that structure demolished as I still have a mental picture from early in life of walking between the ferries and trams without it being there. Unsurprisingly, the area had a wonderful open feel about it and when the railway and road was built it certainly walled in Alfred St quite horribly. I think the best way out of it now would be to just demolish the roadway and maybe by then they could run trains through there wireless (battery or third rail), which would eliminate the ugly overhead. Demolish the solid walls around the station and have it glassed, with a light awning over the station platforms. The ferry wharves should remain low profile as they are now, but it looks like they're planning to build them up higher, which would defeat any improvements around the railway.

So, all things considered, maybe just leave it alone and spend the money on better things.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by eddy »

tonyp wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:13 pm Fortunately I personally don't need that structure demolished as I still have a mental picture from early in life of walking between the ferries and trams without it being there. Unsurprisingly, the area had a wonderful open feel about it and when the railway and road was built it certainly walled in Alfred St quite horribly. I think the best way out of it now would be to just demolish the roadway and maybe by then they could run trains through there wireless (battery or third rail), which would eliminate the ugly overhead. Demolish the solid walls around the station and have it glassed, with a light awning over the station platforms. The ferry wharves should remain low profile as they are now, but it looks like they're planning to build them up higher, which would defeat any improvements around the railway.

So, all things considered, maybe just leave it alone and spend the money on better things.
Even if they just remove the two news stands it would be an improvement, but it is a joke at the moment with runners and bikes in that crowded space.

I listened to the ABC podcast about how much it costs to maintain piers, so in the long run it would be economical to add the 20 metres of width and relocate the rigid sections on fill within a coffer dam.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by gilberations »

Glen wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:45 pm
Randomness wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:34 pm
I also remember seeing a First Fleet on the F3 to Olympic Park on TripView, couldn’t confirm it however.
Thanks, interesting.

Would a First Fleet keep to time on an F3?

I understand they used to run the River back when the service only went to Meadowbank.
I once caught a first fleet from SOP to Quay. It was an all stop service, and arrived about 5 mins late to Circular Quay, after skipping King St.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

One Freshwater class to operate one service every two hours on weekdays.

Iconic freshwater ferries return to Sydney Harbour
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by stupid_girl »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:44 pm One Freshwater class to operate one service every two hours on weekdays.

Iconic freshwater ferries return to Sydney Harbour
I think it's a waste of taxpayer's money.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by tonyp »

stupid_girl wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:58 am I think it's a waste of taxpayer's money.
Given the intensity of the debate and now that a common fare has been introduced, I think it's necessary to run the faster more frequent ferries alongside the slower, less frequent one in order to establish the pattern of passenger demand. This wasn't possible previously because the faster option has had a premium fare since fast ferries were first introduced in 1965. As people invariably prefer faster, more frequent public transport in general, we should find that the Emeralds will be crowded and the Freshwaters fairly empty. We will also need to observe whether there are different preference patterns in normal weekday commuter service vs weekend service with casual visitors and tourists.

This test is years overdue. If the outcome is that we find that the Freshwaters are carrying little but fresh air at their much higher operating costs, some further decisions may flow from that. If they're still popular, then money might be spent on refit of another ferry. A decision needs to be made either way, because the present situation costs the taxpayer out of proportion to the actual level of transport task the Manly ferry performs in Sydney, which outside the pandemic is a relatively small 4 to 5 million passengers a year.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by Fleet Lists »

How will that effect the Fast Ferry service for which a new contract was to come into force on the 1st of July?
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boronia
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:41 pm
Given the intensity of the debate and now that a common fare has been introduced, I think it's necessary to run the faster more frequent ferries alongside the slower, less frequent one in order to establish the pattern of passenger demand. This wasn't possible previously because the faster option has had a premium fare since fast ferries were first introduced in 1965. As people invariably prefer faster, more frequent public transport in general, we should find that the Emeralds will be crowded and the Freshwaters fairly empty. We will also need to observe whether there are different preference patterns in normal weekday commuter service vs weekend service with casual visitors and tourists.

This test is years overdue. If the outcome is that we find that the Freshwaters are carrying little but fresh air at their much higher operating costs, some further decisions may flow from that. If they're still popular, then money might be spent on refit of another ferry. A decision needs to be made either way, because the present situation costs the taxpayer out of proportion to the actual level of transport task the Manly ferry performs in Sydney, which outside the pandemic is a relatively small 4 to 5 million passengers a year.
They have been doing just that since the weekend Freshies were re-introduced late last year. Despite the hourly service departing the same wharf at CQ just 5 minutes after an Emerald, very few passengers seem bothered to wait around for the experience. Maybe they prefer the extra 15 minutes at Manly.
The return trip just fits in with the regular 15 minute frequency. So it is hard to guess if there are more "loyalty" riders on these trips.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: If the outcome is that we find that the Freshwaters are carrying little but fresh air at their much higher operating costs, some further decisions may flow from that.
Given that the decision has been made effectively to match a Labor announcement, can be expected that the government will commit itself to retain the service during the 2023 election to neutralise the independent candidates that inevitably that will make such commitments in the manifestos.
tonyp wrote: If they're still popular, then money might be spent on refit of another ferry. A decision needs to be made either way,
The press release stated that the Queenscliff is to be refurbished in 2023, whether this extends as far as the full $7 million job done on the Freshwater remain to be seen.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:03 pm They have been doing just that since the weekend Freshies were re-introduced late last year. Despite the hourly service departing the same wharf at CQ just 5 minutes after an Emerald, very few passengers seem bothered to wait around for the experience. Maybe they prefer the extra 15 minutes at Manly.
The return trip just fits in with the regular 15 minute frequency. So it is hard to guess if there are more "loyalty" riders on these trips.
My point is that now the opportunity for comparison is extended through the week. I'm sure I know where this is going to lead. The point is that the experience of the "sea" can also be had on an Emerald. Most people would likely be satisfied with 15 minutes of that experience and see little value in stretching it out to 30. Regular commuters typically just want to finish the trip as quickly as possible, as on any other mode.

Including the (no longer the only) Fast Ferry, that's three alternative trip experiences thrown at a market of less than 5 million passengers per year. I hope none of them collide with the pork barrels floating past during the journey.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by boronia »

Capt Cook Cruises also operates at CQ to Manly via Watsons Bay service which shows up in timetables. One ferry every two hours is not likely to change the attitude, how do you differentiate "Freshwater passengers" from "next ferry to Manly" riders. Will be interesting to see the timetables.

I recently Googled "world's 10 best ferry rides". The "ferry to Manly'' got favourable mentions in all of several hits I looked at. But only one had a photo of these "world famous ferries", and that was a generic ferry photo with no actual caption. I think the fanatics are overrating their tourist potential.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

There has been much gazing into crystal balls by some on this board, repeatedly predicting the downfall of the Freshwaters, yet they live on. :D
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by Nat »

stupid_girl wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:58 am
Linto63 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:44 pm One Freshwater class to operate one service every two hours on weekdays.

Iconic freshwater ferries return to Sydney Harbour
I think it's a waste of taxpayer's money.
Peanuts compared to the billions squandered on other pork barrelling vote buying projects...
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

If the F10 (Glebe <-> Barangaroo) brought in since November last year as a partial solution to the L1 drama appears to be staying permanently as its still running today, are they ever going to finally integrate this into the Opal network and accept Opal fares? Or better yet even just let people use their new Opal+ subscription on it?

I’d love to use it but just don’t want to be out of pocket more than unnecessary
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Freshwater class to operate the 0931, 1331 and 1531 ex Circular Quay and 1011, 1411 and 1611 ex Manly on weekdays from 5 September.

Increased services for F1 Circular Quay to Manly route
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by Fleet Lists »

The articles states there will be an additional 30 weekday services.
However the new weekday timetables shows additional trips from Circular Quay at 9.31, 11.31, 13.31.15.31and 17.31 which is 5 trip with 5 matching return trips from Manly which makes it 10 trips per day for 5 days makes it a weekly total of 50 addit1onal weekday trips.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by tonyp »

I am told that yesterday, there were 3,600 Manly commuters on the Emeralds and 125 on the Freshwaters.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by boronia »

That was a tweet from Constance? Where he talked about the ferries running on "weekends and Sundays"?
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:30 am That was a tweet from Constance? Where he talked about the ferries running on "weekends and Sundays"?
Those figures are for Monday. He's saying that the reason he confined the Freshwaters' operation to weekends and holidays was that there'd be little interest in riding them on weekdays - and he's right. I guess sometimes it's necessary to prove these things.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by boronia »

There has been little interest in riding them on weekends either. Similar proportions are being experienced.

The STMF crowd are claiming the Transdev staff are deliberately blocking passengers from riding, telling them the "have" to catch the Emeralds.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022,

Post by tonyp »

I think most of the general public and tourists don't see the Freshwaters as nostalgic old Manly ferries because they look modern. You'd have to put South Steyne on the run to attract that market.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

The decision to reintroduce the Freshwaters was purely political. By reintroducing them, the government has neutralised a platform on which their political opponents were going to campaign on. The deal to replace the Freshwaters was done on Constance's watch, it is now up to his predecessors to best manage it.

Had Constance been more politically astute, perhaps he would still be the transport minister, rather than reduced to carping from the sidelines having overestimated his electoral appeal and brought about his own political demise. The overseas made junk from Tasmania that Constance refers to in his tweet was actually built in China. Good to see he is on top of things. Only one of the 10 trips is a peak-hour service, the 17:31 the Circular Quay. Should there be demand, it is more likely to be in the off-peak.

The tweet is obviously a tit-for-tat response,to David Elliott and Rob Stokes who pointed out Constance's naivety in suggesting Sydney would have a 100% electric bus fleet by 2030 earlier in the day.
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