Rail Public Transport Options for Mount Barker and the Adelaide Hills

[Lt. Commander Data]

Regional Development Australia - Adelaide Hills, Fleurieu, and Kangaroo Island have released a report on public transport options for Mt Barker and the Adelaide Hills, on behalf of the Mount Barker District Council. Quite an interesting read I thought, it can be viewed at https://www.mountbarker.sa.gov.au/__dat ... bliT_2ZskI

[Route 506]

Thanks for posting. Quite an interesting read.
I’ve always thought it’s a no brainer to spend the money and get the Metro Railway line extended to Mt Barker. It will surely get some cars off the road and connections with local Mt Barker bus services can be made. It’s a hugely growing area and to only really have one channel of travel seems crazy. I hope we do get to see this evolve. Would be quite popular for visitors taking the train to Mt Barker too

[Norman]

Weekend services could also be offered to connect to the Steamranger services at Mount Barker, making it easier to get to from the metro area.

[1whoknows]

Its difficult to see how it could be competitive time wise for commuters - current trains from Adelaide take 40m to get to Belair. In the old days it was just on 60m to Bridgewater then you're looking at another 15-20 to Mt barker. The bus journey can be done in just on or under an hour and offers more pick up/ set down offers through the CBD.

[Merc1107]

If the hills are growing as fast as claimed, and the main road into the CBD already close to capacity, wouldn't that justify the expenditure on a new rail corridor in the long run?

Failing that, the usual need for Adelaide to simplify its bus network and do away with the alphabet soup rubbish comes to mind as a sensible solution - if only a stopgap one. I'm of the opinion that if the roads are clogged, it speaks of some deficiency in public transport. Trying to decipher the myriad of frequencies and route variations would certainly deter many would-be users.

[Lt. Commander Data]

Its difficult to see how it could be competitive time wise for commuters - current trains from Adelaide take 40m to get to Belair. In the old days it was just on 60m to Bridgewater then you're looking at another 15-20 to Mt barker. The bus journey can be done in just on or under an hour and offers more pick up/ set down offers through the CBD.

Those travel times are probably based on the buggered Red Hens at the time - the report quotes a 55min trip to Mt Barker, assuming an average speed of 60km/h.

While I agree it’s still not quicker than the freeway most days, I’m sure people would appreciate that it’s 60 minutes every day. On days with major delays (happening on average once a month), the travel time goes from 60ish minutes to anywhere up to 3.5 hours.

I think the point is not to beat the cars, but to offer an alternative. Another 30000 people living in Mt Barker in the next 15 or so years won’t be able to use the freeway - and the days with major delays will increase too.

[Lt. Commander Data]

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messeng ... cd11418020

The general points in the story for those who don’t have access to it:
- $10million for 15 new buses
• Operate every 6-8min at peak hours
• 10-15 interpeak
• 20-30 night
- $2million for a new bus depot
- $6million for 140 new parking at Crafers
- $1million to investigate a new Park’n’Ride at Bridgewater

[bigrobbo]

I am a big fan of trying to get a train service to Mt Barker. But I do have the following questions

1) Will this be a peak service only? Just trying to remember where all the passing loops are. If you are going to use the same line as the freight trains, I can only see minimal non-peak services to and from Mt Barker. And, there could be delays as the passenger train pulls over to wait for a freight train that may be delayed heading to or from Regency Park

2) Where will you build extra car parking?

3) Would you build another rail station at the outskirts of Mt Barker to service the ever growing land release?

4) We are assuming that all passengers want to go to the city. What alternatives are there for those passengers that do not want to head into the city? By that I mean they work in the Eastern Suburbs or similar area. It would be quicker to drive than get a train to the city via Mile End and then somehow transfer to their next service. Seriously, we should have electrified the system and gone underground decades ago.

Not having a loop service in the CBD and not having great rail/bus transfer in the CBD is an Achillies Heel in my opinion with any rail service extension.

[Lieselta]

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messeng ... cd11418020

The general points in the story for those who don’t have access to it:
- $10million for 15 new buses
• Operate every 6-8min at peak hours
• 10-15 interpeak
• 20-30 night
- $2million for a new bus depot
- $6million for 140 new parking at Crafers
- $1million to investigate a new Park’n’Ride at Bridgewater

* we already have a bus depot in the hills
* night service better than every Adelaide route other than the O-Bahn?
* more parking promotes more cars
* where would you put a park and ride in Bridgewater?

stinks of a government worried of losing an election to be honest

[Lt. Commander Data]

* we already have a bus depot in the hills
* night service better than every Adelaide route other than the O-Bahn?
* more parking promotes more cars
* where would you put a park and ride in Bridgewater?

stinks of a government worried of losing an election to be honest

Yes, there are 2 depots in the Hills, both of which are at capacity. I’d recommend looking through the depot gates at either on the weekends to see how packed they are. If they are introducing 15 new buses, a new depot would be absolutely necessary.

Mt Barker is projected to be SA’s second largest City by 2040 (or before!). That does not include places like Nairne, Wistow, Hahndorf. So yes, I’d say a decent level of service at night will be required.

Almost everyone already owns 2 cars in the Hills, so I’m not sure how more parking will “promote more cars”. With such a large population spread, Park’n’Ride are perfect for hills commuters.

There’s plenty of open space near the freeway corridor in Bridgewater - I would suggest it somewhere near there. I’m more curious where they’ll squeeze 140 new parkings at Crafers.

[loungeman76]

Its difficult to see how it could be competitive time wise for commuters - current trains from Adelaide take 40m to get to Belair. In the old days it was just on 60m to Bridgewater then you're looking at another 15-20 to Mt barker. The bus journey can be done in just on or under an hour and offers more pick up/ set down offers through the CBD.

The train service's can be quicker by running them from Adelaide, express to Blackwood, then Mt Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Balhannah, Mt Barker & vise versa.

[bigrobbo]

The train service's can be quicker by running them from Adelaide, express to Blackwood, then Mt Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Balhannah, Mt Barker & vise versa.

I cannot see how the train to Mt Barker can stop at Blackwood without some work done. Are they not talking about using the freight line? They would have to make changes to the lines to have dual gauges at Blackwood wouldn't they?

[Lieselta]

Yes, there are 2 depots in the Hills, both of which are at capacity. I’d recommend looking through the depot gates at either on the weekends to see how packed they are. If they are introducing 15 new buses, a new depot would be absolutely necessary.

Mt Barker is projected to be SA’s second largest City by 2040 (or before!). That does not include places like Nairne, Wistow, Hahndorf. So yes, I’d say a decent level of service at night will be required.

Almost everyone already owns 2 cars in the Hills, so I’m not sure how more parking will “promote more cars”. With such a large population spread, Park’n’Ride are perfect for hills commuters.

There’s plenty of open space near the freeway corridor in Bridgewater - I would suggest it somewhere near there. I’m more curious where they’ll squeeze 140 new parkings at Crafers.

On first part, point taken. Could Mount Barker depot potentially be expanded rather than building a whole new one?

Mt Barker is definitely in need of night service, but so is a lot of Adelaide's suburbs (let alone day service on weekends). I'd much rather this be part of a whole project to completely revamp public transport but they probably don't want to touch that after Knoll's plan. A night service on the 864 would also probably be of far better benefit to all hills residents rather than just a express freeway service.

On the P+Rs, I can't remember the specific video, but it's stuff I've learn from https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos that guides my view here. Simply if the service is promoting people to drive cars to meet it, then it's counter productive in promoting more public transport use. People may as well just drive all the way into the city then. The hills is probably not the easiest place to promote service that doesn't require cars, but without frequent services into localities rather than an express service the situation won't improve.

Point taken again on Bridgewater, I assumed the freeway immedatiely met housing there. The Crafers parking is interesting though, see previous point anyway.

[Eurostar]

Yes, there are 2 depots in the Hills, both of which are at capacity. I’d recommend looking through the depot gates at either on the weekends to see how packed they are. If they are introducing 15 new buses, a new depot would be absolutely necessary.

Mt Barker is projected to be SA’s second largest City by 2040 (or before!). That does not include places like Nairne, Wistow, Hahndorf. So yes, I’d say a decent level of service at night will be required.

Almost everyone already owns 2 cars in the Hills, so I’m not sure how more parking will “promote more cars”. With such a large population spread, Park’n’Ride are perfect for hills commuters.

There’s plenty of open space near the freeway corridor in Bridgewater - I would suggest it somewhere near there. I’m more curious where they’ll squeeze 140 new parkings at Crafers.

On first part, point taken. Could Mount Barker depot potentially be expanded rather than building a whole new one?

Mt Barker is definitely in need of night service, but so is a lot of Adelaide's suburbs (let alone day service on weekends). I'd much rather this be part of a whole project to completely revamp public transport but they probably don't want to touch that after Knoll's plan. A night service on the 864 would also probably be of far better benefit to all hills residents rather than just a express freeway service.

On the P+Rs, I can't remember the specific video, but it's stuff I've learn from https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos that guides my view here. Simply if the service is promoting people to drive cars to meet it, then it's counter productive in promoting more public transport use. People may as well just drive all the way into the city then. The hills is probably not the easiest place to promote service that doesn't require cars, but without frequent services into localities rather than an express service the situation won't improve.

Point taken again on Bridgewater, I assumed the freeway immedatiely met housing there. The Crafers parking is interesting though, see previous point anyway.

There is a bit of land to the west of the current depot that could be used for depot expansion at Mount Barker.

The Volgren Scania L94UB buses are 20 years old this year, 3310 and 3311 (21 years old) so replacement should be looked into as well. I personally would go for Volgren Volvo B8RLE or B12BLE as they would have good power for the Adelaide Hills region especially going up the freeway but I'd imagine either political party will want to keep the job of building buses local.

With the way fuel prices are rising lately improvements across the board will be needed regardless of who gets into Government.

[Lieselta]

I wonder if any of the new Scania orders will make their way to SouthLink to kick start it.

[Merc1107]

Given Adelaide has a procurement contract with Scania, I think that more or less guarantees the replacements will be some sort of Scania product.
All the manufacturers produce a variety of powertrain options for their products - and most are more than powerful enough even for hilly areas, provided the gearshift patterns are suitable for the work being done and match the engine's power/torque curves. The difference in performance on a B8 set to bumble through gears vs ones that will redline in every gear (B8RLEA artics in Perth, excepting a couple programmed more sedately and thus rather unpleasant to steer!) is phenomenal.

As I've already mentioned up thread, there's a need for Adelaide to simplify its bus network. More services are like letting a nasty vine grow ever more tangled in that place. There seems to be a strong emphasis on hard-linked connections, and connections more broadly. What's lacking are a small number of frequent, understandable trunk route options. Discussing the present network with another board member privately has shown that even the Hills Network is not immune to alphabet soup buses... All-stoppers, short-workings, limited stops, limited-limited stops, expresses, express-expresses all seem present. I appreciate the need for short-workings, but as for the rest - there has to be some compromise that generally works better for everyone rather than a cornucopia of routes running to a limited timetable.

[loungeman76]

Given Adelaide has a procurement contract with Scania, I think that more or less guarantees the replacements will be some sort of Scania product.
All the manufacturers produce a variety of powertrain options for their products - and most are more than powerful enough even for hilly areas, provided the gearshift patterns are suitable for the work being done and match the engine's power/torque curves. The difference in performance on a B8 set to bumble through gears vs ones that will redline in every gear (B8RLEA artics in Perth, excepting a couple programmed more sedately and thus rather unpleasant to steer!) is phenomenal.

As I've already mentioned up thread, there's a need for Adelaide to simplify its bus network. More services are like letting a nasty vine grow ever more tangled in that place. There seems to be a strong emphasis on hard-linked connections, and connections more broadly. What's lacking are a small number of frequent, understandable trunk route options. Discussing the present network with another board member privately has shown that even the Hills Network is not immune to alphabet soup buses... All-stoppers, short-workings, limited stops, limited-limited stops, expresses, express-expresses all seem present. I appreciate the need for short-workings, but as for the rest - there has to be some compromise that generally works better for everyone rather than a cornucopia of routes running to a limited timetable.

Then you wonder why people shrug their shoulders says it too hard & use the car to get around the place. I see that there should be a two layer of services; I.e. all stoppers & express or all stoppers & 'F' services. As there are so few TL services left I.e. Outer North, Outer South & Adelaide Hills, I see they should all go & replaced with more express services.

[Lt. Commander Data]

On first part, point taken. Could Mount Barker depot potentially be expanded rather than building a whole new one?

Other than expanding up (a multi-storey depot), or by compulsorily acquiring the caravan park behind, no. Personally I would upgrade the Strathalbyn paddock (which LinkSA and a few Southlink buses use during the inter peak) into a proper depot - thus allowing more services from the Angas River basin, in addition to a fleet expansion.

Mt Barker is definitely in need of night service, but so is a lot of Adelaide's suburbs (let alone day service on weekends). I'd much rather this be part of a whole project to completely revamp public transport but they probably don't want to touch that after Knoll's plan. A night service on the 864 would also probably be of far better benefit to all hills residents rather than just a express freeway service.

As the Mount Barker area is among the fastest growing areas in Australia, I'd say it should take priority over the generally stagnant, already well served (comparatively) inner-suburbs on the Adelaide Plains.

On the P+Rs, I can't remember the specific video, but it's stuff I've learn from https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/videos that guides my view here. Simply if the service is promoting people to drive cars to meet it, then it's counter productive in promoting more public transport use. People may as well just drive all the way into the city then. The hills is probably not the easiest place to promote service that doesn't require cars, but without frequent services into localities rather than an express service the situation won't improve.

Yes, PNRs can encourage people to drive to a carpark rather than using a feeder. In many places, this isn't desirable, but applying this theory as a blanket rule for everywhere isn't right. The Adelaide Hills, and the limited arterials to the CBD, combined with the low density (and therefore high spread) of population mean that PNRs will work more effectively. It's better for people to only drive as far as a PNR, then bus/train/whatever it to the CBD, rather than clogging up the few roads to the CBD with (usually) single occupant cars.

There is a bit of land to the west of the current depot that could be used for depot expansion at Mount Barker.

No there isn't, that's where the railway is.

The Volgren Scania L94UB buses are 20 years old this year, 3310 and 3311 (21 years old) so replacement should be looked into as well. I personally would go for Volgren Volvo B8RLE or B12BLE as they would have good power for the Adelaide Hills region especially going up the freeway but I'd imagine either political party will want to keep the job of building buses local.

As Merc1107 mentioned, Adelaide has a contract with Scania and Bustech until 2030 (at least). Volvo/Volgrens will not replace the Hills fleet, unless Keolis Downer decide to purchase their own vehicles. Given the lack of connection between KD and Volgren(Marcopolo) now (vs previously when ATE had a strong connection with Volgren through Grenda's), this seems very unlikely. The current Scania K280s have more than enough power for the Hills, and I'm sure the K320 rigids will too. I would imagine the contract already accounts for current fleet replacements, note this press release has said 15 extra buses by 2024, which is when the first of the current fleet (3269) turns 25.

[loungeman76]

Just a quick aside, whereabouts in Strathalbyn is the LinkSA/SouthLink paddock please?

[loungeman76]

When the 3 axle buses come up for replacement, it'll be artics & not 2 axle buses. I say this as having seen the 3 axle buses in the peak being fully seated & up to 3/4 standees.