Manly Ferry Services...

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Post Reply
stupid_girl
Posts: 933
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by stupid_girl »

When will summer timetable be released? Do they still plan to run a 10 minute frequency using Emeralds at the summer peak?
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

Normally the summer timetable would have been announced by now. We will have to wait and see what it will look like.

After my earlier post today, later in the day the Balmoral and Freshwater are shown in Anytrip but again no sign of what the third one is.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by jpp42 »

Yet another beat-up, this time about "cracks" in Balmoral

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/cra ... 59fa2.html
"[A] surveyor report confirmed a number of welding defects that are minor, isolated, and do not compromise the overall structural integrity of the vessel. Such welding defects are not uncommon and will not impact the Balmoral’s operation.”
Though apparently these cracks have not been found in the Incat-built Mark 1 ferries - so I don't know who to believe in terms of how important this is.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

Anytrip shows the Balmoral back in service this morning together with the Fairlight but again no third vessel
Living in the Shire.
lunchbox
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:50 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Bicycle - no waiting - on time
Location: Sydney

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by lunchbox »

There's an Emerald Class (?) in dry dock alongside Anzac Bridge - 7.12.21.
17258
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

I have seen an article in a paper Telegraph that it is the Clontarf which so far I have not seen reported in service, with propeller shaft problems.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by jpp42 »

Yes definitely Clontarf on the floating dry dock.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

In all the beat-up,it's conveniently overlooked that the Freshwaters had plenty of teething problems early in their service, particularly control system failures. One even ended up on the beach at Manly Wharf. Any new transport product of this complexity will have issues to iron out early in its life, quite normal - unless you have a political agenda to milk.

As for the "superiority" of local build, the best local one I've come across in modern times is the NSW State Dockyard-built "Kooleen" where, after a while they discovered that all of the bolts and welds holding the superstructure to the hull had failed and the superstructure was sitting on the hull only by virtue of its own weight (lucky it didn't try to go to Manly!). It had to be sent to the (privately-owned) Morts Dock for a minor rebuild and was then pretty good for the rest of its service. This didn't make it to the press. The Spin Doctors kept it tightly under control. Two State bodies, the Sydney Harbour Transport Board and State Dockyard were then at war with each other over compensation (Crown vs Crown). The government obviously had to put the lid on that too.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

Reported elsewhere that Narrabeen has been reinstated.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

Narrabeen to return to service in late summer after engine overhaul authorised.

Freshawter class ferry to go back to work amid plagued Emerald rollout
stupid_girl
Posts: 933
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by stupid_girl »

https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 211213.pdf
The summer timetable has been released.
Apparently, the Freshwater class ferries will only be used on weekends and depart at 50 past the hour from Circular Quay, only 5 minutes after the Emerald class ferries departing at 45 past the hour. How empty these large Freshwater class ferries will be? Is it a trick to keep them below capacity (and prepare for ultimate withdrawal :twisted: )?
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Fleet Lists »

https://transportnsw.info/news/2021/f1- ... s#homepage
F1 Manly ferry timetable changes
Friday 10 December 2021

From Monday 13 December 2021, additional ferry services will run on F1 Manly to Circular Quay route.

Service frequency between Circular Quay and Manly will be improved from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes on weekdays and up to every 15 minutes on weekends and public holidays.

These should see journey time improve to around 22 minutes by Emerald Class ferries, 10 minutes faster than the current Manly ferry service.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

It is interesting that there is NO mention of it being a summer timetable. So it could well be a permanent timetable.

With all weekday and most weekend trips now to take 22 minutes - only two minutes slower that the Manly Fast Ferry this raises the question as to how much longer the Fast Ferry will continue. The contract started in April 2015 - nearly 7 years ago so is likely to be up for review in the near future. Does anyone know when the contract actually ceases?

Also there does not seem to be any point in the announcement earlier this week that the Narrabeen will also be brought back into service. Or will there be a later summer timetable?

And is AnyTrip prepapring for the new timetable as it has not shown any F1 trip all day today?
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

It was rumoured last year that the MFF contract would expire this year, and that NRMA wouldn't be seeking to renew. This was supposedly the reason the new Emeralds were needed in a hurry.

It has also been claimed that Transdev has bought some of the MFF cats for their own use.

But there are a lot of conspiracy theorists in ferry related groups.

The MFF timetable changed recently and it now offers a 30 minute off-peak frequency,
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote: It is interesting that there is NO mention of it being a summer timetable. So it could well be a permanent timetable.
A new timetable is always introduced around this time of year to reflect higher weekend demand. Historically this involved all 4 Freshwater class being in service on Sundays over the summer months.
Fleet Lists wrote: The contract started in April 2015 - nearly 7 years ago so is likely to be up for review in the near future. Does anyone know when the contract actually ceases?
Per page 19 of the contract, runs for 7 years which would make termination date on or around 31 March 2022.
Fleet Lists wrote: Also there does not seem to be any point in the announcement earlier this week that the Narrabeen will also be brought back into service. Or will there be a later summer timetable?
Target return to service date is 'late summer', so probably about the same time that the high season ends.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by boronia »

stupid_girl wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:56 pm https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 211213.pdf
The summer timetable has been released.
Apparently, the Freshwater class ferries will only be used on weekends and depart at 50 past the hour from Circular Quay, only 5 minutes after the Emerald class ferries departing at 45 past the hour. How empty these large Freshwater class ferries will be? Is it a trick to keep them below capacity (and prepare for ultimate withdrawal :twisted: )?
It would give a very good indication of just how "popular" they will be. How many passengers will wait an extra 5 minutes for a slower trip?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

Linto63 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:19 pmTarget return to service date is 'late summer', so probably about the same time that the high season ends.
But why would they bring back a third Freshwater as Freshwater services are only timetabled for weekends?

From Fast Ferry website
https://www.myfastferry.com.au/2021/11/ ... ill-cease/
Ticket sales through My Fast Ferry JustRide app will cease

My Fast Ferry will stop selling tickets through the My Fast Ferry JustRide app from Sunday 28th November 2021.

Tickets that have been purchased prior to the 28th of November can still be used until their expiry date 6 months after their purchase date. Unused tickets expiring after 28th November 2021 will only be refunded or reissued in extenuating circumstances.

Discounted fares continue to be available through our new Smartcard which was introduced in February 2021.

The My Fast Ferry Smartcard also offers a range of additional benefits such as Auto Top-Ups, card management through our mobile app or online portal and discounted bar prices.
Is this another indication that they may cease about six months from then?
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:54 pm How many passengers will wait an extra 5 minutes for a slower trip?
Sydney Snailrail double-deck train enthusiasts.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

Fleet Lists wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:57 pm
Linto63 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:19 pmTarget return to service date is 'late summer', so probably about the same time that the high season ends.
But why would they bring back a third Freshwater as Freshwater services are only timetabled for weekends?
Apart from being a spare for the other two for weekends (I imagine that a lot of conspiracy theorists will see one out of service being an attempt to wind down the service?), I wonder if they will put them into service during rough weather if the Emeralds ultimately fail to pass?.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote: But why would they bring back a third Freshwater as Freshwater services are only timetabled for weekends?
Would indicate that the problems the Emeralds have won't be overcome quickly with the Freshwaters required for some time to come on weekday services, much to the displeasure of some. Federal Liberal Party have also identified the seat of Warringah, in which Manly sits, as a must win. So maybe a request from head office to do whatever it takes to keep it out of the media.
Fleet Lists wrote: Is this another indication that they may cease about six months from then?
Presumably it will cease once Sydney Ferries can operate a full Emerald class service when My Fast Ferry's speed advantage will disappear. But other happenings as mentioned on this thread may mean that the date has slipped. There are provisions within the contract for the government to extend the franchise, exactly how long for has been redacted.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Transtopic »

It still remains to be seen if the new Emerald class ferries can operate to their specified performance levels in the swells across the heads. So let's wait and see how that pans out. While they may be perfectly capable of handling adverse weather conditions, the comfort of passengers may be another issue compared with the larger Freshwater class ferries. In the meantime, it is prudent to reinstate the Narrabeen to cover for any possible downside to the Emerald's capability.

While regular commuters may prefer a faster journey, I don't think tourists, particularly on the weekends, would care less if they travelled on the slower iconic Freshwater ferries, which are a major tourist attraction. They should be preserved for posterity, as other more enlightened cities overseas have done. The proposed timetable seems to be a cynical attempt to limit the patronage of the Freshwater ferries, when services could be more evenly spaced.
In Transit
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by In Transit »

I don't believe the new timetable is a conspiracy to reduce patronage on the Freshwater Class. Instead, its looks like the result of trying to produce a timetable using two different vessel classes with very different running times, and I suspect is based around using only one wharf face at Manly - if you look at the timetable closely arrival and departure times at Manly are basically an even 15 minute headway (give or take a couple of minutes) throughout the hour, which means all Sydney Ferries can use the one side of the wharf as they do now. However, to achieve this the Freshwater departure at Circular Quay needs to be offset from the Emerald Class departure times, leaving earlier to allow it the 8 minutes more running time.

If there really was a conspiracy regarding loadings, surely the timetable would have Freshwaters departing Manly only just after an Emerald Class too - not at an even spacing. And if all those Freshwater enthusiasts are to be believed, people will line up and happily wait anyway - not just the extra five minutes but a whole hour - to catch a Freshwater instead of an Emerald, because it's the only decent way to experience a ferry on the harbour. That is, of course, if they haven't already decided not to visit Manly/Sydney/NSW/Australia because they might no longer have the option of a trip to Manly on a Freshwater.

Tongue in cheek? Absolutely, but most of the Freshwater vs Emerald debate seems driven by emotion/lack of understanding/industrial issues/political opportunism/commercial interests, helped along by a salivating media. As with all service changes that have an underlying benefit to the majority of passengers, this gets lost in all the noise that isn't actually driven by their best interests.

What's the real story here? From Monday, the weekday F1 will operate every 20 minutes instead of every 30 minutes, a significant improvement in frequency. On weekends it will operate every 15 minutes (with that one 5/25 minute gap at Circular Quay, solely due retaining the Freshwater Class), which is double the current frequency. Not only that, but all weekday trips and over 3/4 of weekend trips will be nearly a third faster, with a 22 minute instead of 30 minute journey time.

This is great news, and supporters of public transport ought to be applauding timetable changes that significantly improve frequency and reduce running times. These are the things that attract passengers to public transport and are genuine improvements to the service provided by the F1. Yet instead we have a very noisy group that wants to continue moaning about the Emerald Class and weeping over the Freshwater Class....

This folks, is why we sometimes can't have nice things. Changes to public transport services usually provoke some kind of backlash, even when designed to improve the overall service and attract more passengers. Part of this backlash is the natural resistance of some existing passengers to any changes whatsoever, and this is usually fuelled by political opportunists and many who rarely or never even use the service but are happy to jump on a bandwagon. This gets magnified by the media, and explodes if there are industrial or commercial interests involved. It's the nature of things - and it can make governments very reluctant to take such risks. If you want better public transport, you need to help encourage governments to take the risks to improve it - the easiest and often politically better option for them is to simply do nothing to improve services...
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

The irony is that the Emerald-type service level is what the operator of the big ferries had been trying to achieve for some seventy years before the government took over - a faster, more frequent trip at standard fares. However, the technology wasn't there to enable them to achieve this. They got better screw steamers that were capable of raising the average speed a little, until the premium on operating costs of running at those speeds began to bite. Then they tried diesel-electric and that helped fleet-wide average speed to rise by a knot or so, which shaved off a few minutes. Then that became too expensive to operate. Next, they got hydrofoils which did a marvellous job, but the operating costs were so high that they had to charge premium fares for them. If the PJMS Co. (the company celebrated by the "traditional" ferry enthusiasts) was still around, they would have gone for the Emeralds in a flash because they finally solve the speed vs operating costs issue and, because they turn around faster and more per hour can be operated, the small hourly loss of capacity is not significant - except maybe in summer holiday weekends. And the Freshwaters cost a bomb to operate compared to the Emeralds. Their main value now is as floating pork barrels.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Their main value now is as floating pork barrels.
No, until the problems with the Emeralds are sorted out, they will be doing much of the heavy lifting on the F1 service.
In Transit
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by In Transit »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:34 am
tonyp wrote: Their main value now is as floating pork barrels.
No, until the problems with the Emeralds are sorted out, they will be doing much of the heavy lifting on the F1 service.
Not according to tomorrow’s new timetable. It’s showing that that the Freshwaters will be relegated to operating just hourly weekend services - it’s the Emeralds that will be running the complete weekday and most of the weekend service.

The Emeralds have teething issues, which is normal. There’s a steady drip feed of of these to the media, giving the impression there’s massive unresolved problems - but actually this is quite normal and just usually goes unreported.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”