Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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GriffinRoads1
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by GriffinRoads1 »

Honestly, just rebuilding the "tram" line from Wynyard to North Sydney would be enough for right now. Would be a perfect relief line for the T9 and CCN services.
The whole WHT is just a complete joke to me. We're in the middle of a recession and we're spending $14 billion, not million, BILLION on basically Westconnex Part 2. New highways do nothing to solve traffic, they'll smudge it around for a tad at the start and in the long term it just INCREASES traffic. Don't believe me? Look at LA!
People always say that the Northern Beaches Line would be "too expensive" yet we can throw away FOURTEEN BILLION on something that will make traffic worse?
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by Swift »

Sydney will never change. We lost people with real vision and planning 100 years ago. Now it's all about selfish vested interests. A horrible city.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by eddy »

GriffinRoads1 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:24 am Honestly, just rebuilding the "tram" line from Wynyard to North Sydney would be enough for right now. Would be a perfect relief line for the T9 and CCN services.
The whole WHT is just a complete joke to me. We're in the middle of a recession and we're spending $14 billion, not million, BILLION on basically Westconnex Part 2. New highways do nothing to solve traffic, they'll smudge it around for a tad at the start and in the long term it just INCREASES traffic. Don't believe me? Look at LA!
People always say that the Northern Beaches Line would be "too expensive" yet we can throw away FOURTEEN BILLION on something that will make traffic worse?
I too was against it originally as I did not believe they could do the immersed tunnel and I did think it would only bring more cars into the city but now they intend to do it in an eco freindly way and it is half done I hope they finish it ASAP because I was stuck on the harbour bridge recently and it had traffic backed up everywhere.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by GriffinRoads1 »

I sure hope bus traffic is allowed through (likely not double decker though), but it's unlikely since most big road projects these days are just toll roads funneling even more money into Transurban's pockets.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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GriffinRoads1 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:24 am Honestly, just rebuilding the "tram" line from Wynyard to North Sydney would be enough for right now. Would be a perfect relief line for the T9 and CCN services.
The whole WHT is just a complete joke to me. We're in the middle of a recession and we're spending $14 billion, not million, BILLION on basically Westconnex Part 2. New highways do nothing to solve traffic, they'll smudge it around for a tad at the start and in the long term it just INCREASES traffic. Don't believe me? Look at LA!
People always say that the Northern Beaches Line would be "too expensive" yet we can throw away FOURTEEN BILLION on something that will make traffic worse?
Building the WHT actually presents the opportunity to reclaim the Cahill Expressway lanes on the bridge for rail. It wouldn't be possible otherwise. I support it. It also provides a western bypass of the CBD with direct links to the M4, M5 and M8, taking pressure off the existing bridge and tunnel, as well as offering an alternative route bypassing the CBD when the other crossings are blocked by accidents, such as we had recently. It doesn't feed traffic into the CBD. Private cars, commercial vehicles and some through bus services aren't going to disappear anytime soon.

On the other hand, a Northern Beaches Railway should take precedence over the Beaches Motorway link, as it will significantly reduce traffic congestion on the existing road links which could also be upgraded. The need for buses from the Northern Beaches to cross the bridge to the CBD will also be dramatically reduced.

I can't see how just reinstating the eastern rail tracks across the bridge from Wynyard to North Sydney alone would be of any benefit, if that's what you are suggesting. If you mean that it could potentially connect with a City Relief Line, without building a Northern Beaches Railway immediately, then I agree. If a City Relief Line were to be built, then it would more likely be used exclusively for T1 services, with T9 and potentially T2 express services using the existing bridge tracks. It's unlikely that Intercity services, including CCN, would use the bridge crossing, as they will eventually be operated by 10 car D sets in the peak, which will terminate at Central.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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My bit about the Eastern tracks was just for the necessity of having those tracks ready for use for the eventual Northern Beaches line, and/or for increased capacity and services for the North Shore, which could see St Leonard's station finally finished, possibly with the North Sydney services extended up there with trains turning around using the siding there.
The North Shore line needs to be upgraded for noise proofing, if you live in Waverton or Wollstonecraft you're guarranteed to be deaf in a couple o' months. Upgrades like these would be easily done as part of this project. Sure, Sydney metro would be taking off a lot of the weight, but it skips quite a large region from Crows Nest onwards.
If the Northern Beaches line never gets built, at least you have the extra capacity for services. Plus, making plans revolving around the D sets is a bad idea, they've been around for 3 years and nothing has happened with em except for sending the whole network into chaos. Nothing's certain when it comes to them (and frankly I hope stays that way, the later those death traps enter service the better.)
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by Transtopic »

GriffinRoads1 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:06 pm My bit about the Eastern tracks was just for the necessity of having those tracks ready for use for the eventual Northern Beaches line, and/or for increased capacity and services for the North Shore, which could see St Leonard's station finally finished, possibly with the North Sydney services extended up there with trains turning around using the siding there.
The North Shore line needs to be upgraded for noise proofing, if you live in Waverton or Wollstonecraft you're guarranteed to be deaf in a couple o' months. Upgrades like these would be easily done as part of this project. Sure, Sydney metro would be taking off a lot of the weight, but it skips quite a large region from Crows Nest onwards.
If the Northern Beaches line never gets built, at least you have the extra capacity for services. Plus, making plans revolving around the D sets is a bad idea, they've been around for 3 years and nothing has happened with em except for sending the whole network into chaos. Nothing's certain when it comes to them (and frankly I hope stays that way, the later those death traps enter service the better.)
I'm still not sure whether you mean reinstating the eastern tracks alone from Wynyard to North Sydney or connecting with a future City Relief Line at Wynyard.

Once the Metro Northwest is extended to the CBD, there will no longer be the same capacity needed on the North Shore Line from Chatswood to Wynyard for interchanging passengers, which is currently 20tph. Prior to the conversion of the ECRL to metro, the North Shore Line from Chatswood to Wynyard ran at 18tph, which included 4tph from Hornsby via Epping on the Northern Line. The effective frequency on the North Shore Line north of Chatswood was therefore 14tph.

The proposed digital signalling upgrade of the Sydney Trains network will potentially allow for up to 24tph, so I don't think that quadding the track from North Sydney to St Leonards would be justified. However, it wouldn't preclude utilising the spare outer platforms at St Leonards for through North Shore services and repurposing the centre platforms for terminating services, with a turnback constructed north of St Leonards Station in between the outer through track pair, which eliminates any crossing conflicts. Rather than quadding the track from North Sydney to St Leonards, I would rather see the existing wide reserved track corridor utilised for curve easing.

IMO, the North Shore Line should operate with a single all stations pattern from Hornsby to maximise its frequency and Berowra services operate semi-express via the Northern Line along with all CCN Intercity services. The few minutes saved in skipping some stations on the North Shore Line is hardly worth it. There was a time when suburban services following electrification operated from Cowan to the CBD via the Northern Line. The completion of full quadding of the Northern Line from Epping to Strathfield as part of the Northern Sydney Freight Corridor program will facilitate this. I can't see the need for reinstating the eastern rail tracks on the bridge unless it's part of a Northern Beaches Rail Link and after completion of the WHT. But I digress.

I'm afraid it's wishful thinking that the D sets won't ever make it onto the tracks as they are already here and just waiting for a resolution of the conflict with the RTBU, which will inevitably come. I don't agree that they are death traps. It is proposed that they will operate in 10 car sets in peak hours which precludes them from operating on the City Underground. It's common practice in many rail jurisdictions, including in Australia, to operate safely with Driver Only Operation, not that that's proposed here in the immediate future.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by GriffinRoads1 »

That's a far better plan, forget mine.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by eddy »

Looking at the original proposal https://roads-waterways.transport.nsw.g ... update.pdf they wanted to drive from coffer dams to save trucks on the road but it would be faster and cheaper to drive the tunnels first and just hole into them with the Artemis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBCfX-XRM1A but it all depends on the patience of the locals.

Anyway if they decide to drive it through Birchgrove oval with the expertise of the team who have nearly finished the Nowra bridge this is my suggestion https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... sed-tunnel
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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"Designed to provide a second Sydney harbour crossing" A bit late for that as we have had one for a number of years.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

Post by eddy »

This update video 31/3/22 https://caportal.com.au/rms/wfu/registe ... march-2022 may be of interest to some.

PS
Although the locals do not want the Birchgrove oval touched I think it would be much cheaper to do a cut and cover incrementally launched immersed tunnel there.

Also I think they would get on board if the money saved was used to significiently upgrade the oval like at Bomaderry.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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I believe that the Anzac bridge was originally built big enough to allow the concrete materials to arrive by ship but they tried ships from the gravel loader and also trains at Dunmore but it seems the best way is a congo line of trucks up Mt Ousley https://museum.shellharbour.nsw.gov.au/ ... el-loader/

As they are thinking about building a new batch plant somewhere there https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/beg ... h%20Market. perhaps the continuous pour of sections at Birchgrove oval could be done with a couple of trucks on a couple of barges to avoid traffic noise.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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Regarding the use of Birchgrove oval, perhaps the locals can make a deal where they pay no rates while it is used, also as the concrete pour would only be one day per week I now think the best way is to use a portable concrete plant on the oval with a stockpile created slowly.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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It looks like we do not need the club with incremental launching https://amp.brisbanetimes.com.au/nation ... 5am6e.html

PS
Here is a photo of the two launch rams on the incrementally launched Nowra bridge.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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They did the last pour on the Nowra bridge today but it looks like NSW will lose the expertise as they have not even started to do anything on Birchgrove oval.

America thought it was smart in stopping Germany from using Nord 2 thinking it would be able to sell more coal, oil , gas and wheat to the EU but all it has done is to drive Putin mad with prices going through the roof and everybody going on strike.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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Still no action on Birchgrove oval yesterday only a sign to say they will replace the fence so maybe they are not going to use the incrementally immersed tunnel.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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Not sure if they are still going to use the incrementally launched immersed tunnel or the old fashioned way according to this video they sent me today https://caportal.com.au/rms/wht?hview=h ... F432104880
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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It would be best to decide now if the tunnels will be done deeper with a TBM so the ones they are driving now can be deeper to limit the grade.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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Selim k from Architecture, Uzbekistan (Oʻzbekiston) made the first comment on my incrementally launched immersed tunnel yesterday but I don’t know what it was ha ha https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... a4128276ae
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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Evidently they are not going to use what I suggested so I suppose they will drive below the harbour with a roadheader.

I suggested to them that they drive at 5% grade so they have plenty of cover to go beneath the harbour as road traffic can easily handle that grade and in the future there will be electric vehicles with regeneration.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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They sent me an email that said they would give my suggestion to the engineers driving it but after looking at it in Google I think it would be cheaper and easier to continue wherever with a conveyor to take the muck away because the ventilation would be easy with the many cross passages.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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Evidently they are going to use a TBM for stage 2 for the WHT https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox ... JQqcBCnsnJ

Originally I thought they may have continued with the roadheaders but as a circular tunnel has more strength they must have decided it was better.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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eddy wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:23 pm Evidently they are going to use a TBM for stage 2 for the WHT https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox ... JQqcBCnsnJ

Originally I thought they may have continued with the roadheaders but as a circular tunnel has more strength they must have decided it was better.
Sydney harbour is REALLY deep, the bottom of the valley is filled with compressed sediment. Unless the tunnel is really deep it will have to go through this soft waterlogged stuff. A TBM can be designed to deal with this - rock-cutting road headers not so well.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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matthewg wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:24 pm
eddy wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:23 pm Evidently they are going to use a TBM for stage 2 for the WHT https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox ... JQqcBCnsnJ

Originally I thought they may have continued with the roadheaders but as a circular tunnel has more strength they must have decided it was better.
Sydney harbour is REALLY deep, the bottom of the valley is filled with compressed sediment. Unless the tunnel is really deep it will have to go through this soft waterlogged stuff. A TBM can be designed to deal with this - rock-cutting road headers not so well.
That is why I suggested to them to go steeper at 5% grade so they would have plenty of cover when the girls were not sure if they would go immersed tunnel or drive below.
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Re: Sydney harbour immersed tube tunnel.

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"girls" ?
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