Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Lt. Commander Data wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:47 am
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:50 am Why doesn't Transport For NSW sit all the operators down and say the government has signed a contract with Custom Bus for the Custom Denning Element to be only electric bus for use in NSW so the only things you need to worry about now are bus specs and how many you want
I’m sure if that happened, TNSW would find themselves taken to court by Volgren, Bustech, etc for acting in an anti-competitive way.
Anything Australian built is better then fully Chinese built Yutong and BCI e buses that are popping up in Sydney where BYD is getting bodied by Volgren for Victoria or Nexport eventually when they get up and running Nexport will be in the NSW southern highlands
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by BAMBAM »

Lt. Commander Data wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:47 am
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:50 am Why doesn't Transport For NSW sit all the operators down and say the government has signed a contract with Custom Bus for the Custom Denning Element to be only electric bus for use in NSW so the only things you need to worry about now are bus specs and how many you want
I’m sure if that happened, TNSW would find themselves taken to court by Volgren, Bustech, etc for acting in an anti-competitive way.
What's the difference between Perth and Adelaide with Volgren and Bustech respectively?
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

Good question.
In Adelaide and Perth the contracts for the delivery of buses are direct between the equivalent of Transport for NSW and the bus builders/providers and the contracts with the operators include the fact that buses are provided to them and they do not have any say in what buses are used.
In NSW the operators have direct contracts with the bus builders/providers and as such Transport for NSW can not tell them what type of buses to use except for the guidelines as to what buses have been approved. Any new contracts would need to be changed so that bus arrangements in Sydney would be the same as in Perth & Adelaide. With some contracts just having started or about to start, it would now take a long time before that would spread through all regions. I just can not see that happening.
If the guidelines were to be reduced to only one model of buses, that would leave them open to the issues raised above.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Somewhere as big as Sydney should be procuring vehicles in large tenders organised by the State's overseeing transport body. This business of a few buses here, another handful there must cost the taxpayer a fortune versus the economies of scale possible with an order of several hundred, or even thousands of buses.

Even if TfNSW are behind the times with vehicle configuration, you at least get a consistent experience across the network, and operators can be allocated the right mix of vehicles (rigid, double-deck, artic, diesel, gas, electric, whatever) for their region (or swap them, as needed, which we see in Perth - the only caveat being those are lost if the contract is lost). Operators can realise cost savings by carrying smaller parts inventories, spend less time inducting drivers and maintenance staff, and so on.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

I tend to agree. What I described is the current situation which as you say is not the ideal.
The caveat you mention is already in place in NSW for buses acquired since 2007 which are leased by the operator from whoever financial owns them, and are automatically transferred to the new operator as per the contracts. There is one difference with the ex STA regions where all buses irrespective of age are being transferred. And I believe the current Transdev contracts also include a clause that all buses will be transferred irrespective of age if they loose the contracts concerned.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

I'd consider that there's a fine line between what they are doing in WA, SA and Tasmania and actual anti-competitive behaviour. Surely there must have been competitive tendering at the outset in these states, but then the successful tenderer has been rewarded with an opulent long-lasting, high volume contract that nobody else is seemingly going to be able to break into for many years. I know that Custom Denning would like to demonstrate their electric bus in Perth, but what chance would they have of even being considered? PTA would presumably simply refuse to call tenders, thus shutting out any competition to Volgren/Volvo. Standardisation is certainly good, as long as it doesn't eventually close the door on new and better ideas emerging from elsewhere as the existing manufacturer takes their captive market for granted and slacks off.

The problem with TfNSW is the slackness of their standards, allowing substandard designs to take hold at the whim of individual operators. That also means that better manufacturers have no incentive to promote a superior product. That's the problem that Custom Denning now faces.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:30 pm I'd consider that there's a fine line between what they are doing in WA, SA and Tasmania and actual anti-competitive behaviour.
Is it really any different from the tendering for operation of the bus networks for very lengthy (decade-long) periods? There is absolutely some initial competition to find a winning bidder, but the winner gets a pure monopoly for the duration of their contract. In one early account of Privatisation in Perth (an Auditor-General's report, from memory), concern was raised over the fact a tenderer might be 'customer-focused' early and late in the contract (for obvious reasons), but be completely unhelpful in the intervening years.
tonyp wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:30 pm I know that Custom Denning would like to demonstrate their electric bus in Perth, but what chance would they have of even being considered? PTA would presumably simply refuse to call tenders, thus shutting out any competition to Volgren/Volvo. Standardisation is certainly good, as long as it doesn't eventually close the door on new and better ideas emerging from elsewhere as the existing manufacturer takes their captive market for granted and slacks off.
As I didn't read any of the documents associated with the presented Volvo/Volgren tender, it's hard to say whether this guarantees them exclusive rights to deliver buses for Transperth, or whether this could be augmented at some point with buses from another entity. I wonder how the situation compares with SA and Tasmania?

In the late 2000s three CNG-powered articulated buses were acquired for demonstration purposes in Perth (when Mercedes-Benz/Volgren combination was flavour of the week). What I've never found out (owing to a change of Government in 2008), is, would the arrangements with Mercedes-Benz at the time have allowed a separate tender for articulated buses from another entity to be drawn up?
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by 1whoknows »

Tasmania, Perth and Adelaide all ran open tender processes before awarding their current bus delivery contracts so there is nothing anti competitive about them. Tenders are lawfully able to specify that local manufacturing "may be considered an advantage" or similar wording thus incentivising prospective tenderers to make such offers.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:21 pm Good question.
In Adelaide and Perth the contracts for the delivery of buses are direct between the equivalent of Transport for NSW and the bus builders/providers and the contracts with the operators include the fact that buses are provided to them and they do not have any say in what buses are used.
Are Admet and Transperth contract holding operators even allowed to apply their company's logos on their buses or is there something in those contracts not allow any signage other then the government agency signage and logos on buses
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:08 pm Are Admet and Transperth contract holding operators even allowed to apply their company's logos on their buses or is there something in those contracts not allow any signage other then the government agency signage and logos on buses
In Perth they're allowed a tiny sticker on the window.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Merc1107 wrote: This business of a few buses here, another handful there must cost the taxpayer a fortune versus the economies of scale possible with an order of several hundred, or even thousands of buses.
Transit Systems region 6 is a case in point. In the two and a bit years in which it purchased diesels, chassis were purchased in drips and drabs from Mercedes-Benz, Scania and Volvo and bodies from Bustech, Custom, Gemilang and Volgren and in multiple combinations in some cases. Some of this may have been what it inherited from State Transit, but a lot seems to be its own doing. Gone are the days of the Wran government ordering 550 Mercedes O305s in one hit.
Fleet Lists wrote: And I believe the current Transdev contracts also include a clause that all buses will be transferred irrespective of age if they loose the contracts concerned.
Not sure about buses, but under the direct award negotiated, Transdev depots will pass to TfNSW at the end of the current contract.
Merc1107 wrote: In one early account of Privatisation in Perth (an Auditor-General's report, from memory), concern was raised over the fact a tenderer might be 'customer-focused' early and late in the contract (for obvious reasons), but be completely unhelpful in the intervening years.
If the tendering process has been done properly, there will be incentives to over achieve and penalties for under achieving.
Merc1107 wrote: As I didn't read any of the documents associated with the presented Volvo/Volgren tender, it's hard to say whether this guarantees them exclusive rights to deliver buses for Transperth, or whether this could be augmented at some point with buses from another entity.
The contracts with Volvo and Volgren will specify a minimum number of purchases, appears to be an average of 90 buses per annum.
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Are Admet and Transperth contract holding operators even allowed to apply their company's logos on their buses or is there something in those contracts not allow any signage other then the government agency signage and logos on buses
Adelaide buses have stickers along the roofline much like Sydney.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Bus Suggestions »

Merc1107 wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:10 pm As I didn't read any of the documents associated with the presented Volvo/Volgren tender, it's hard to say whether this guarantees them exclusive rights to deliver buses for Transperth, or whether this could be augmented at some point with buses from another entity.
There is provision for the PTA to acquire demonstrators from other suppliers in the contract. From the RFT Book 3:
PTA Demo Bus clause.png
PTA Demo Bus clause.png (29.76 KiB) Viewed 4472 times
Referring to Clause 2.7:
Technical Clause 2.7.png
Technical Clause 2.7.png (23.79 KiB) Viewed 4472 times
I'd post any important, bus-related links I had, but they're outdated anyways.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Orana aesthetic »

https://youtu.be/MGyBy9MHtXc
Video of Elements being charged at the STA Waverley depot. The repetitive warning bell on these buses is very annoying - a continuous hum like the pedestrian noises electric cars make would be much easier to listen to and would do the job more effectively.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by GriffinRoads1 »

Or maybe just make a fake VF drive? It would signal how fast the bus would be going to.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

I'd have thought the abominable racket of the air-conditioning system would suffice, alas no
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:15 am I'd have thought the abominable racket of the air-conditioning system would suffice, alas no
There's a lot of background noise in the video, I don't think any of it can be attributed to the aircon. If it was, I can only say that you don't normally hear air conditioning over the abominable racket of a diesel! Electric buses are treacherously quiet outside and very quiet inside (except for BYDs). Have you ridden the new BZL's in Perth yet?
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:42 am
Merc1107 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:15 am I'd have thought the abominable racket of the air-conditioning system would suffice, alas no
If it was, I can only say that you don't normally hear air conditioning over the abominable racket of a diesel!
Can't agree with that one. A certain popular A/C unit I am (unfortunately) intimately familiar with can outdo most diesels with their aggravating levels of fan noise and noise-induced vibrations, inside and outside the bus.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Stonesourscotty »

Does anyone know if the islander that was killed in St Marys was at Custom Denning or Channel 7 incorrectly used the wrong image? They didn't name them but flashed a company logo on screen for about a second?
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Linto63 »

English operator Preston Bus is to trial a Custom Denning Element. There is a bit of a Dunn family connection, PB is managed by Bob Dunn, father of CD owner Scott. PB is a subsidiary of Rotala, whose managing director is Scott's brother Simon.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Wonder what role, if any, Brexit is playing in this?

In spite of the family connection there might be a market there depending on what tariffs are on trade at the moment.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

It was always planned to export to UK right from the beginning of the project. Doubtless the extended family had a role in the germination of this.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Merc1107 wrote: Wonder what role, if any, Brexit is playing in this?
Little if any, the traditional European suppliers have still been supplying UK operators, albeit in smaller numbers due to other manufacturers having stolen a march on them in the electric market.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

First Element sold to an interstate operator heads off from St Marys to Sunbury Bus, Melbourne.

Image

[Custom Denning image]
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:56 pm First Element sold to an interstate operator heads off from St Marys to Sunbury Bus, Melbourne.
This tells me that the Demonstration unit must have been successful. I wonder if this bus will go in ptv livery?

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