Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state
axeltyler6
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by axeltyler6 »

The modern citybus body is designed as low floor to make it accessible and they also try to keep the centre of gravity as low as possible.
So there is a limit on the body height.

The problem is not that the ceiling is too low clearly it isn't when you're in the low-floor area but the floor is too high.
Agencies and operators don't buy the right chassis.

So they inevitably end up with a clearance problem at the back of bus or most of the way along it in the case of a Combo artic.
They should be checking the floor to ceiling measurement of their chassis before they go ahead with the order.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

axeltyler6 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:13 am The modern citybus body is designed as low floor to make it accessible and they also try to keep the centre of gravity as low as possible.
So there is a limit on the body height.

The problem is not that the ceiling is too low clearly it isn't when you're in the low-floor area but the floor is too high.
Agencies and operators don't buy the right chassis.

So they inevitably end up with a clearance problem at the back of bus or most of the way along it in the case of a Combo artic.
They should be checking the floor to ceiling measurement of their chassis before they go ahead with the order.
I think most of them don't notice or care because they never actually ride buses in commuter services themselves to see how they perform with crowds. The functionality of buses is studied intensively in Europe but not here. Custom Denning have introduced a European bus design to Australia but my conversations with TfNSW indicate that they don't understand the significance of it. A lot of apathy in the industry here.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:54 am I think most of them don't notice or care because they never actually ride buses in commuter services themselves to see how they perform with crowds. The functionality of buses is studied intensively in Europe but not here. Custom Denning have introduced a European bus design to Australia but my conversations with TfNSW indicate that they don't understand the significance of it. A lot of apathy in the industry here.
Maybe it would be better if transport agencies are told vertically positioned engines in buses means a low floor aisle way thought the vehicle rather then the horizontally positioned engine layout that leads to the stepped raised rear section after the centre door that your not a fan of
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:46 pm Maybe it would be better if transport agencies are told vertically positioned engines in buses means a low floor aisle way thought the vehicle rather then the horizontally positioned engine layout that leads to the stepped raised rear section after the centre door that your not a fan of.
Honestly, TfNSW don't know and don't care. I've spoken to them directly and they either have no idea about these advances, or they do know and they don't place any significance in them. They're simply happy to accommodate whatever a manufacturer comes up with (same with trams). So the terrible VST/XDi design slipped through freely (in fact I think the standard was altered to accommodate them) and they're allowing electric buses with centrally-mounted drives (hence high floor), even though Europe abandoned those in the 1990s. PTA in WA understands more and there are signs of more progressive attitudes in Victoria and Queensland. SA, ACT and Tasmania are still in a long sleep.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

tonyp wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:44 pm
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:46 pm Maybe it would be better if transport agencies are told vertically positioned engines in buses means a low floor aisle way thought the vehicle rather then the horizontally positioned engine layout that leads to the stepped raised rear section after the centre door that your not a fan of.
Honestly, TfNSW don't know and don't care. I've spoken to them directly and they either have no idea about these advances, or they do know and they don't place any significance in them. They're simply happy to accommodate whatever a manufacturer comes up with (same with trams). So the terrible VST/XDi design slipped through freely (in fact I think the standard was altered to accommodate them) and they're allowing electric buses with centrally-mounted drives (hence high floor), even though Europe abandoned those in the 1990s. PTA in WA understands more and there are signs of more progressive attitudes in Victoria and Queensland. SA, ACT and Tasmania are still in a long sleep.
I'm pretty sure that this was discussed earlier in this thread or in another thread that Low Entry Buses are generally preferred more than Low Floor Buses so Vulnerable Passengers (i.e. Elderly, Disabled, and Pregnant mothers can be close to the driver.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

I'm sure they can be close to the driver in a low floor if the bus is configured properly.

Otherwise, stop infrastructure needs to be able to allow a bus to manoeuvre in, park completely parallel to the curb, and give passengers at all doors a step onto a level surface, rather than into a flower bed, gutter or some other deadly abyss. In W.A., often-cited here as an example of better/best practice, only the front doors are accounted for in most DDA upgrades to bus stops, and stops aren't always placed appropriately there either. Apparently it is "unreasonable" to expect more!

I assume that was the vibe of your post - that proximity to the driver is desirable where they must render assistance or if only one entrance is truly accessible.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

MotorOmnibus8562 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:49 pm I'm pretty sure that this was discussed earlier in this thread or in another thread that Low Entry Buses are generally preferred more than Low Floor Buses so Vulnerable Passengers (i.e. Elderly, Disabled, and Pregnant mothers can be close to the driver.
That assumption has no logic. The seating/parking spaces for those who need the ramp at the front door - and potentially need the assistance of the driver - are located in the front half of the bus anyway, regardless of whether the whole bus is low floor or low entry. Those people are near the driver, that's not an issue. The issue is that the front half of a bus has a finite amount of seating that is available to anyone. If all that seating is full, then it is only fair that anybody with mobility issues to whom stairs present a problem should be able to access the whole length of the bus in order to find a seat, otherwise they will be standing up, which is a worse outcome. I've often seen that happen.

The other issue with the low entry format is that it inhibits a free flow of passengers between front and back of the bus because the stairs form a physical and psychological obstacle, as well as a trip and fall hazard. It discourages standees from using the back half of the bus, hence leading to overcrowding in the front section between the two doors, in turn blocking access to the doors. In very busy services, ideally there should also be a third door at the back.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

I note that in the NSW Parliament Inquiry into Emission-Free Modes of Transport, Custom Denning's submission hints at their future plans - some of which have been mentioned previously.

They currently have capacity for producing 440 buses per annum, but have been running at only 14% capacity, which will increase to 36% this year due to additional orders.

It is planned to build a new purpose-built facility in Western Sydney in early 2026. This will increase efficiency and capacity to over 1,000 vehicles per annum and will lead to 800 additional employees and significant growth in local OEMs.

They will enter the freight transport sector in late 2023 with the introduction of the Custom Denning battery electric truck.

In addition they are currently developing a bus export market with the first bus being exported in November 2022.

They also propose a battery manufacturing plant to supply batteries to both vehicle and static battery markets and are planning to incorporate this into their new manufacturing facility, commencing early 2026.

They are in discussion with other state and territory governments regarding the Element and they have commitments from both the ACT (4 buses) and Victoria (3 buses), with buses entering service there in the coming months.

They have placed a bus in South Australia for trials to commence soon on Adelaide metropolitan services.

(In a separate submission, DIT South Australia stated that the Bustech ZDi that they've trialled has not lived up to expectation and requires further development. So, apart from the Element, they're expecting to receive a Scania electric bus demonstrator.)
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by 1whoknows »

Two of the three Element buses for Victoria (Sunbury Bus Lines) have arrived with the third expected soon.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by BAMBAM »

A lot of talk for increasing production and hoping to sell more but the longer they off the road they might as well look for alternatives as customers won’t be happy to buy new buses and gather dust.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by MiCCROwavE_OVEN »

Around May this year the Elements were pulled from service in NSW. This was not reported in the media because no one wanted to hear that the Australian made electric bus everyone was so hyped about suffered battery issues.
Despite that, several Elements are now in service again with Busways Western Sydney.
I have no clue how Sunbury managed to get their Elements in August, maybe Custom Denning found a quick fix and prioritised new deliveries instead of fixing current vehicles. Transdev John Holland's Elements are yet to return to the roads.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

MiCCROwavE_OVEN wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:26 pm Around May this year the Elements were pulled from service in NSW. This was not reported in the media because no one wanted to hear that the Australian made electric bus everyone was so hyped about suffered battery issues.
Despite that, several Elements are now in service again with Busways Western Sydney.
I have no clue how Sunbury managed to get their Elements in August, maybe Custom Denning found a quick fix and prioritised new deliveries instead of fixing current vehicles. Transdev John Holland's Elements are yet to return to the roads.
There was no battery issue or fault to fix. There's nothing wrong with the bus, it was an external issue. The Elements have been available for service again for some time and Busways have been running them for a while. You'd have to ask Transdev JH why they haven't returned them to service.

I looked at all the electric buses at the Expo today. The Element is clearly in front of all of them on all points. There are a couple of close contenders, yet to be fully proven, from Scania and Volvo, but the rest of the field is pretty woeful. The Ebusco has potential, but the 2.2 as presented is only a low entry bus. We might have to wait for the Ebusco 3.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:43 pm There was no battery issue or fault to fix. There's nothing wrong with the bus, it was an external issue.
It was my understanding from vague tidbits shared elsehere on the board the fire in France involved the same make or model of battery as used on the Element. Wasn't that under investigation?
tonyp wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:43 pm You'd have to ask Transdev JH why they haven't returned them to service.
Precluding some fault that was uncovered with their units, I have my suspicions...
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

A photo taken by Transit Graphics from the Custom Denning display.

A double deck Element for the UK market:

Image
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:58 pm
It was my understanding from vague tidbits shared elsehere on the board the fire in France involved the same make or model of battery as used on the Element. Wasn't that under investigation?

Precluding some fault that was uncovered with their units, I have my suspicions...
No and no.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:05 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:58 pm
It was my understanding from vague tidbits shared elsehere on the board the fire in France involved the same make or model of battery as used on the Element. Wasn't that under investigation?
No and no.
Thus I will assume this prior post is to be regarded as 'superseded' at this point. :)
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:18 pm Thus I will assume this prior post is to be regarded as 'superseded' at this point. :)
Absolutely null and void :wink:

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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by MiCCROwavE_OVEN »

tonyp wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:43 pm There's nothing wrong with the bus, it was an external issue.
What sort of external issue? Surely it can't be as bad as the time when STA's CB80s were falling apart.

Also did you hear Transit Systems is ordering 79 of these? Makes a change from overseas-manufactured BYD Gemilangs.
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... s-contract
On the fleetlists 10 of these are listed as going to Kingsgrove, most likely to replace the Scania L113CRLs there.
Also unusual that the hydrogen buses are going to Hoxton Park because the oldest bus there is only 20 years old. Burwood needs new buses more urgently.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

MiCCROwavE_OVEN wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:47 pm Also did you hear Transit Systems is ordering 79 of these? Makes a change from overseas-manufactured BYD Gemilangs.
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... s-contract
On the fleetlists 10 of these are listed as going to Kingsgrove, most likely to replace the Scania L113CRLs there.
Also unusual that the hydrogen buses are going to Hoxton Park because the oldest bus there is only 20 years old. Burwood needs new buses more urgently.
I dare say the older buses will get replaced by surplus newer existing diesel buses from the depots with Electric Vehicle charging.

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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by MiCCROwavE_OVEN »

That certainly explains why Leichardt got rid of so many of its Gemilang bodied K310UBs, but it mightn't be long before those too are cascaded to Tempe or Burwood.
For Region 3, Smithfield has one bus that needs replacing. It seems unlikely to me that Region 3 buses will find their way into the Inner West.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by BanksfielderIdiot823 »

MiCCROwavE_OVEN wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:12 pm For Region 3, Smithfield has one bus that needs replacing. It seems unlikely to me that Region 3 buses will find their way into the Inner West.
Different contract and region, different trading name, different accreditation number, completely different set of circumstances between the Inner-City Reg 6 (ex-Govt) and the suburban Reg 3 (mostly ex-CDC).

In fact, Reg 3’s contract is going through a tendering process at the moment. So whether TSA retains it and gets to replace the buses is anyone’s guess.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Can't say it's anything more than a visit however there is a recent post on the Custom Denning official Facebook group of some people from Keolis Downer having visited CD's St Mary's site recently.

While Keolis Downer seems to have locked in for the ZDi's for Newcastle at least (much to a lot of dismay & contovesery on the decision) I don't believe there is nothing stopping them from extending their reach to other manufacturers for their region 8 (North Sydney) operation since their Northern Sydney Fleet has very recent Custom bodied buses as part of their fleet so keeping the supply chain & support ongoing would make logical sense where as with Newcastle the EVO II custom series was last delivered in early 2011 with no CB80s and was followed by a short lived time with Volgren before then switching in 2015 - 2016 to Bustech as STA Newcastles last body preference of choice before privatisation in 2017.


This 1 year old article from ABC may now be a hint Keolis is finally ready to also get Eletric buses rolling in Northern Sydney in the not so distance future.

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... s-contract
The contract will see the introduction of 125 electric buses over the next eight years, delivering more sustainable transport options for the local community from two newly electrified depots in Brookvale and Mona Vale, it confirms.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Transport Buff »

Custom Denning's new website is live:
https://www.custombus.com.au/

Interesting to note:
- Electric Coach coming in September 2023
- Electric Truck coming in February 2025

A functional and seamless website, with cool design and aesthetics. :)
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by alleve »

Transport Buff wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:29 pm Custom Denning's new website is live:
https://www.custombus.com.au/

Interesting to note:
- Electric Coach coming in September 2023
- Electric Truck coming in February 2025

A functional and seamless website, with cool design and aesthetics. :)
Interesting how the images they show for the Custom Denning Element are different from the model we've got on the front, but from the back and in the interior it looks the same.

An Evo II, perhaps?
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