Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

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Tim Williams
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Tim Williams »

Thanks Tonyp and others, I have just seen the ABC video review and read the full article - "outstanding" was the word that was used several times to describe various aspects of this bus. To have designed and built this bus in this country, which seems so far ahead of other electric buses, is an absolute credit to Custom Denning. I think AD might have gone into bed with the wrong people in the UK!
The uncluttered fully flat floor is a total plus for the bus, a 2.4mtr consistent interior height and the clean interior and exterior lines, combined with obviously superior performance from their electrical set up, should ensure that they have a winner here and overseas, providing that there is good reliability in use.

Full marks to Custom Denning!
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

While the bus does appear radical in the context of the Australian and UK markets, it's fundamentally based on the standard European low-floor citybus in its electric form which dates back over a couple of decades in Europe and has been produced by the likes of Iveco and Solaris (with electronics by Skoda and others) and now, recently, manufacturers like Daimler, MAN and Volvo have jumped on board. Hitherto, it seems to me that there's been a wilful blindness in English-speaking countries to bus developments on the European continent which, with the advent of electrification, has allowed UK and Australian operations to fall easily into the hands of the Chinese who have seen the commercial opportunity to develop a particular expertise in bus electrification and sell it to the world. The problem is that it lacks the technical excellence and practicality of the European product but it's cheaper to buy (but probably not to run).

Scott Dunn, who owns Custom Denning and came from the UK when he bought Telfords, strikes me as a very smart bloke and he has very obviously acquired a detailed working knowledge of European bus design (Custom with its long experience would have much of this knowledge too), as well as choosing a defining moment in history to score a major strike on the market - that is, when electrification of bus fleets is about to take off on a major scale. And what better to strike with than something radically different and better than the current limited and mediocre (China-origin) offerings in Australia. There's also a lot of industry talent and knowledge that's gone into this, from tuning the technology down to the styling. It's a stunning effort by Custom and, as you say Tim, one hopes that the production quality and reliability will match.

Dunn and Custom will also need to be on the ball with manufacturing and support when the sales get rolling. It must be an apprehensive moment right now when nobody can tell whether this will take off modestly or quickly accelerate to hundreds of orders that outstrip their manufacturing capacity in Sydney and Brisbane. Companies can come undone on too-rapid expansion and it will have to be planned carefully.

There will be another electric bus based on the European low-floor citybus that will be coming to Australia in Perth this year, bodied by Volgren on, I believe, Volvo's standard 7900 electric platform. This has only appeared as a hybrid version in UK and operations there have gone with BYD or Yutong for full electrics. This is where Custom could make an impact in the UK with its superior design - but then Volvo might decide to push its 7900 electric in UK and it will be game on. We live in exciting times.
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1whoknows
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by 1whoknows »

I would not start shouting the praises of the Element just yet until it has proven itself in fully operational conditions rather than just being taken for a run around the block for a magazine.
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tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

1whoknows wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:55 am I would not start shouting the praises of the Element just yet until it has proven itself in fully operational conditions rather than just being taken for a run around the block for a magazine.
That's why Tim and I mentioned the production quality and reliability. Everybody is waiting on how they go on trials - and later in long-term service. I've seen plenty of transport products launch with great hubris then fail at the actual task they have to perform, either completely or only come good after a long period of revising the product, the Bustech electric being an example (the childhood illness phase the Czechs call it). Everything looks right in the Element but it's fingers crossed at the moment.
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boronia
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by boronia »

Reminds me of those "Car of the Year" competitions that motoring journalists get all excited about.

How many COTYs have ended up in "Greatest Motoring Lemons" lists a few years later?
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Linto63
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Linto63 »

boronia wrote: Reminds me of those "Car of the Year" competitions that motoring journalists get all excited about.

How many COTYs have ended up in "Greatest Motoring Lemons" lists a few years later?
Leyland P76, Holden Camira come to mind.😣 Back in the day, Truck & Bus Transportation gave some rave reviews of a few buses that were complete turkeys.
Merc1107
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

1whoknows wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:55 am I would not start shouting the praises of the Element just yet until it has proven itself in fully operational conditions rather than just being taken for a run around the block for a magazine.
Agreed. While it may seem to tick all the right boxes now, they could still prove to be an operational nightmare (I hope not). It reminds me of the fanfare and excitement over the Volvo B8 artics when those first came about ... Think I'll leave that train of thought there.
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

CD is being very cautious, they're staying pretty shtum about the bus until the outcomes of the live trialling become known. Most of the publicity is coming from media and political directions, particularly from the angle of promoting Australian manufacturing and in western Sydney.

Here for comparison is a video that I came across today of a ride in the Melbourne Volgren BYD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irZ1Cr6-R1s

The good side is that it's Volgren and I love those European-style seats, which the Element doesn't have (but perhaps that may become a customer option?). On the downside, you can hear the racket that the BYD motors make on the inside of the bus (though quiet on the outside). That's bad actually. I don't recall coming across any modern electric bus quite as noisy on the inside as BYD. The other downside for the passenger is those monumental stairs and very high floor caused by the chassis design - and thus also the low headspace at the back. The low floor Element absolutely has it all over this.

On a tangent, NSW observers will note the unhassled nature of the rear door boarding which lands people right in the middle of the bus with not so far to go inside either direction, thus reducing congestion. It makes a mockery of the ludicrous front door only policy in NSW.

For the record, Leyland P76, especially the V8, was a brilliant car in the Australian market at the time, they got that right in the award. Its design and performance were way ahead of the Australian-produced competition. Holden and Falcon didn't really catch up with the technology until the 1990s, but then they finally became very good. The reputational problem came from the production issues stemming from demand being greater than the too-rushed commencement of production could cope with, combined with a simultaneous cutback of investment funding from the UK parent. The sort of painful lesson that manufacturers like CD would very much have in mind. Don't compromise the build quality to try to cater for the initial demand when it turns out to be higher than expected. Pursuing the dollar in the short term isn't worth the long-term reputational damage.
Linto63
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: CD is being very cautious, they're staying pretty shtum about the bus until the outcomes of the live trialling become known.
Quite happy to give a quote though
tonyp wrote: The good side is that it's Volgren and I love those European-style seats, which the Element doesn't have (but perhaps that may become a customer option?).
Seats tend to a customer specification, Transit Systems Sydney's recent Gemilang and Volgren deliveries both have bench seats from the same manufacturer, while eqivaqlent deliveries to Transdev Melbourne both have bucket seats.
tonyp wrote: The other downside for the passenger is those monumental stairs and very high floor caused by the chassis design
While slightly higher than on diesel equivalents, hardly monumental.
tonyp wrote: For the record, Leyland P76, especially the V8, was a brilliant car in the Australian market at the time, they got that right in the award.
Put another way, turn up in a 1973 Falcon and Torana, people will think that's a cool car, turn up in a P76, hmm probably not.
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

For those who've noticed that the early renders of the Element bore only the Denning name on that distinctive front-end, it's of interest to revisit the early conception of the design:

https://www.busnews.com.au/product-news ... ectric-bus
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:57 pm While slightly higher than on diesel equivalents, hardly monumental.
The configuration of most underfloor diesel chassis enables a staged step-up to the high floor. The BYD chassis forces a steep step-up in one spot. I've seen elderly people start to climb the stairs, change their mind and come back down. Not only a challenge for some passengers but unsafe in a moving vehicle too.
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

The Element is attracting some interest overseas. This is from a Hungarian bus portal late last year and a "google translation" is provided below, in which you will have to make some interpretation as the translation is not exactly accurate throughout. The author has some keen insights into the Australian bus scene.

https://magyarbusz.info/2020/09/29/cust ... traliabol/
Custom Denning Element: a new zero-emission bus family from Australia
Author: Patthy Gellért
Date: September 29, 2020

Australian Custom Denning is scheduled to begin road testing its all-new locally zero-emission city bus family in October. The Element product line will only be available with alternative drive modes, and in addition to the cordless electric bus version of greater market interest, a hydrogen fuel cell version will be made.

The style of the front wall may be familiar from several other bus types today

In Australia, the position of smaller, local bus manufacturers in urban transport has traditionally been strong. Sydney-based Custom Denning in its current form is a relatively new player in the market, although its roots go far back, as it was formed from the merger of two smaller businesses, Denning Manufacturing and its acquiring Custom Coaches, in September last year. The latter brand name may also be familiar to more determined fans of the Hungarian automotive industry: the company was one of the partners of Csepel Autógyár in the mid-1990s, and at that time many buses were mounted on chassis delivered by the Hungarian manufacturer. Of course, the Australian offerings today consist of quite different types, and in line with the expectations of the age, alternative drive modes are also playing an increasing role in the product range.

The question is whether the deep-drawn rear windscreen of the computer model will remain in the final version

The Element model family, which is designed and manufactured entirely in Australia, is such a recent development that not even its prototype has been completed yet - that is why we can only present the novelty in the form of visual designs. Based on the rendered images, the modern, albeit moderately innovative, exterior design moves on the ground of reality, so what you see is probably already close to the final look. Based on the information released so far, there will be a single body version, 12.5 meters long, 2.5 meters wide and 3.3 meters high, with a self-supporting, lightweight, stainless steel frame structure designed for a 25-year lifespan. The images released by the manufacturer show a two-door version with a 2-2-0 door layout, although single-door city buses also occur in kangaroo land. The passenger doors with a planetary front and a swing-sliding system in the middle are supplied by the Dutch Ventura. In addition to computer graphics, Custom Denning has also released an animation of the incoming model scheduled for September 9th World Electric Vehicle Day.

The passenger compartment is reported to be low-floored along its entire length (this is not taken for granted in the Australian market dominated by low-entry models), and capacity will be around 80 people, depending on its interior layout, with 47 seats and 33 standing seats by default. The Australian manufacturer is trying to make the bus attractive with a number of “smart” features: the state-of-the-art Coachair EX32 air conditioner, adapted to warm conditions, automatically shuts off the air supply when the second door is opened, but it is possible to cool the passenger compartment before leaving, increasing the range that the vehicle can cover. The on-board telematics system provides the operator with real-time information on the status of the bus, and driving safety is enhanced by Electronic Brake System (EBS), ESP and Advanced Driver Assist System (ADAS) - for the latter collision risk, pedestrians crossing the bus and the traffic lane It also warns you to leave without a turn signal with an audible signal or the vibration of the driver's seat, while at the same time blocking the vehicle's acceleration.

The bus will, of course, have LED light sources

Element promises to offer cities a cost-effective solution to achieve zero-emission mobility. Technically, the biggest throwback to the new model family is undoubtedly that, if all is true, you get solid state batteries. According to the manufacturer, they do not require a separate cooling system, and do not contain nickel, cobalt or electrolyte, which is harmful to the environment, and are said to be relatively easy to recycle - the Custom Bus Group itself helps. The exact value of the battery capacity to be installed in the bus has not been discussed yet - the range that can be covered with one charge is approx. It is estimated at 300 kilometers, which Custom Denning calculates provides about 16 hours of continuous operation. It will take 5 hours to fully charge the batteries on the roof or at the end of the vehicle with a DC charger via the European standard CCS Type 2 connector. In addition to the intelligent battery management system and regenerative braking, the effective thermal insulation of the passenger compartment also plays a role in reducing energy consumption. A 250 kW peak permanent permanent central flash is used to move the vehicle
Merc1107
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Interesting read.

Although must say, mention of EBS, ESP and ADAS has me thinking one thing, "Damned electronic nannies." I can only assume (some of) those are the sorts of interference between the driver's inputs and the controls that makes it tricky to pull up a late-model vehicle perfectly (i.e. imperceptibly), every time.
Didn't realise we'd progressed to vibrating seats to warn of 'obstacles' in the vehicle's path... Perhaps making a cab that isn't riddled with blind spots would be a better solution?

It actually reminds me somewhat of Tonyp's other posts remarking how the bus industry is ruled by mechanics. Do the manufacturers have to endure their products as a driver (i.e. for 6-10hrs a day), as passengers and from the maintenance points of view? Or do they aim for products that look good with a bureaucrat standing in front for a photo?
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

I think a lot of these aids were designed for the frightening dolts who somehow got a driver's licence and are out there driving cars erratically. Their relevance to professional HCV drivers must be questionable although I guess a rear-view camera is a useful thing to have. If we get to the point of having lane departure warning and car-ahead/emergency braking aids we might as well just drive around with our eyes shut. I think they do sap your driving skills which is what a professional driver doesn't need. We have two cars, one with a rear camera and dipping mirrors and one without these aids. For years I could blind reverse park to within centimetres no problems. Now the car with the camera etc has spoiled me so much that I fuss around parking the other car like a blithering amateur. Then there are those cars that reverse-park themselves! The ABC reviewer of the Element did question why a city bus would need a lane departure warning. Perhaps some potential clients could have a quiet word to Custom Denning. All that glitters is not gold.
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1whoknows
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by 1whoknows »

I agree with many of those comments. My most recent purchase of a "smart" car has been quite annoying.

The proximity warnings go off nearly every time I have to park in between two other cars, even though each car is in the middle of its bay. The damn beeping is far more likely to cause an accident than any misjudgement on my part having been parking cars and sometimes buses successfully for well over 40 years. Given the proximity for bus parking in most depots the same settings on a bus would drive anyone barmy.

The BRAKE warning comes on randomly when approaching the slope on the exit road from my estate approaching the main road.

When on cruise control for years I have been used to testing my skills by judging distance in mirrors for when to change lanes for overtaking etc without the speed needing to change. First time I drove the Hume with the new car I noticed I was being overtaken more..... damn cruise control adjusts if you come up behind a slower car.

My view is the same as Tony's..... the reliance on this technology will gradually deskill existing drivers and prevent many new drivers from obtaining the level of skill of current drivers. This will probably be used to justify more autonomous vehicles. Which will lead to bigger and better accidents when hackers send them crashing into each other like a real life computer game.
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scott
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by scott »

Some of these new cars are dumbing us down thats for sure.

Where I work at the moment has a mixed pool car fleet of Toyota Camry/Corolla,Hyundai i30,Kia Cerato and a couple of Nissans. The Toyota's(new model type Corolla and Camry) have an electric handbrake which automatically applies when you put them into park, the others have the old school mechanical handbrake and in the case of the Nissan's a foot pedal, after driving the Toyotas, you have a tendency to forget the handbrake.

But the beeping drives you crazy and it goes beserk around Box Hill, don't even try with the cruise control, preferring to control it on my own. Trying to figure out how these things work and how to set things are hard with a 600 page manual in the glovebox.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

The third-built Element, sent to Custom Denning in Brisbane, was previewed at the QBIC conference on the Gold Coast at a gala dinner with invited guests from across the industry on Saturday last. According to Custom's report on the event, it was "test driven on multiple occasions by customers, suppliers and the opposition [perhaps Bustech?], transferring our VIPs from SeaWorld to Movie World and back again in the evening, before heading home to Acacia Ridge. The verdict and feedback from all that test drove the bus, and the passengers who rode on the bus or were transferred, was unanimously positive, and having performed for so long and so well before their very eyes has converted many within the industry. All in all the bus ran for in excess of 17 hours, was test driven by 8 different operators, carried in excess of 160 people, and travelled in excess of 400 kms, all on one charge and still had plenty to give."

Image
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

The Element is now in production with deliveries from July. No. 3 was running around Brisbane for Translink yesterday. The Sydney demos are going to another metropolitan operator and an outer metropolitan operator for more live trials very shortly.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Could Custom repurpose the Endeavour to be their universal chassis/body option for electric buses if a operator wants to order the EV bus option from Volvo or any of the other European bus manufacturers
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Any imported electric chassis can be bodied by any Australian bodybuilder willing to do so. I imagine they would typically adapt one of their existing bodies to the chassis, as Volgren and Gemilang have already done. I'm sure Custom Denning could, in theory, do the same with its Endeavour body but they're heavily promoting an in-house integral electric product at present as are Bustech apparently.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:24 pm Any imported electric chassis can be bodied by any Australian bodybuilder willing to do so. I imagine they would typically adapt one of their existing bodies to the chassis, as Volgren and Gemilang have already done. I'm sure Custom Denning could, in theory, do the same with its Endeavour body but they're heavily promoting an in-house integral electric product at present as are Bustech apparently.
The Element is Customs first integral product where Bustech have been building their integral Cummins powered diesel product the XDI since the late 2000s so Bustech has more experience in building integral products
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:36 am
The Element is Customs first integral product where Bustech have been building their integral Cummins powered diesel product the XDI since the late 2000s so Bustech has more experience in building integral products
However, Custom's first effort outclasses Bustech's many efforts by a factor of a million!

Anyway, isn't the CD integral product an existing one already developed by Denning?
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by BanksfielderIdiot823 »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:36 am The Element is Customs first integral product where Bustech have been building their integral Cummins powered diesel product the XDI since the late 2000s so Bustech has more experience in building integral products
In some cases, no matter how much longer some company has done something compared to another company, it doesn't always mean that first company would know how to get it right compared to the second. Surely techBus fills the criteria of that 'first company' basis. Remember; QUALITY and QUANTITY are two different things, but one of them is better and more valuable.
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tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

The Element is now on the NSW Procurement Panel.
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