WS Airport Metro

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:29 pm BALMORAL comes to mind. 2258 and 2571.
The GNB gets around that by classifying Balmoral only as a Locality.
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jpp42
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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This got me interested, given the GNB data is publicly available, I've done some queries and found that the following are duplicate suburb names. As best I can tell the only thing that distinguishes these in addresses is the postcode (and other attributes such as LGA, which I've listed below to distinguish them). So while I'm sure that GNB and Australia Post prefer not to have duplicated suburbs, they do actually exist. The following are all current, valid, gazetted suburbs.

PLACENAME POSTCODE LGA
Hillsborough 2290 LAKE MACQUARIE
Hillsborough 2320 MAITLAND
Huntley 2530 WOLLONGONG
Huntley 2800 ORANGE
Kingswood 2747 PENRITH
Kingswood 2340 TAMWORTH REGIONAL
Lansdowne 2163 BANKSTOWN
Lansdowne 2340 GREATER TAREE
Mayfield 2540 SHOALHAVEN
Mayfield 2304 NEWCASTLE
Pretty Beach 2539 SHOALHAVEN
Pretty Beach 2257 GOSFORD
Silverwater 2128 AUBURN
Silverwater 2264 LAKE MACQUARIE
Spring Hill 2500 WOLLONGONG
Spring Hill 2800 ORANGE; CABONNE

There are even more duplicates when you go to Localities and Urban Places, etc. For example there are no less than six localities called "Back Creek" (all in different LGA's however).
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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

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jpp42
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Is it Aerotropolis or Aerotopolis ? That article has both spellings...
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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https://www.sydneymetro.info/westernsydneyairportline has Aerotropolis which I think is correct.
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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Besides which it's about to be called Bradfield.

https://proposals.gnb.nsw.gov.au/public ... b8bbe9c6b2

At a commercial speed of nearly 70 km/h it will pretty much level-peg with an equivalent section of the Mandurah line in Perth as the fastest suburban line in Australia, all the more impressive because, like the Mandurah line, it stops at all stops. The Gold Coast line is faster but it's interurban and has half the number of stops over an equivalent distance, so is able to reach higher maximum speeds. It will absolutely smoke any train running on the Sydney suburban lines, even interurban trains that have hardly any stops. The journey times should be quite something when it connects to Schofields and Macarthur and the West Metro comes out to the WSA and Bradfield. But of course the textbooks tell us that metros aren't meant for this type of job. Perth and Sydney getting it all wrong. :?
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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It stretches credibility that the State government can continue to persevere with this project as a priority, with the apparent acquiescence of the Federal government, when Infrastructure Australia gave such a damning appraisal of its viability "at this time". It didn't rule it out as a longer term project. It's got nothing to do with whether it's a metro or part of the Sydney Trains' network. It's the route that's the problem, not the mode.

The bleedingly obvious solution to provide a more immediate rail connection to the new airport is to extend the SWRL from Leppington, which is half the distance and most likely half the cost of the St Marys option. The State government is conning the Feds into co-funding part of their long term outer suburban orbital metro link, compared with a more modest commitment to extending the SWRL. The latter would provide a more direct connection to the broader rail network, instead of on the fringe at St Marys, as well as potentially providing a more direct and faster link to the CBD without the need to interchange. It could even operate with compatible SD trains via the East Hills Line and Sydney Airport as well. It doesn't preclude the proposed longer term outer metro links being built, if that's considered to be feasible.

The government's press release states that the St Marys metro link would cater for up to 7,740 passengers per hour. As it will only initially be operated with 3 car trains, and ultimately 4 cars, that equates to a frequency of 15tph with a capacity of 516 passengers, based on an 8 car capacity of 1,376 for the metro stock. I find it hard to believe that level of frequency and patronage could be justified in the early years before the new urban centres around the metro stations are fully developed. The SWRL extension would tap into an established and developing catchment area well before that on the link to St Marys. The fact that it would be an extension of the existing Sydney Trains' network shouldn't come into it.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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The new urban centres require the railway first in order to develop.

The West Metro will eventually run on from Westmead to WSA and Bradfield, which would make an extension of the Leppington line to WSA redundant, particularly as the metro would provide a quicker journey to the Sydney CBD.

If the Western Sydney Metro was abandoned (not forgetting that it's part of a continuation the NW metro from Schofields down to Macarthur, so that would be abandoned too), the Leppington line would have to be extended, not only to Bradfield and WSA, but also to the business/industrial zone north of the airport, then to support developments at Luddenham and Orchard Hills. It would have to be extended so far north it would almost reach St Marys.

.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

The Fed Govt is willing to support it despite the IA report, because of the potential value impact on its bigger investment - IE. The Airport itself.

Quicker growth of the airport, means more chance of a quicker 'recycling' (sale) of the airport at a higher price.

And St.Marys provides access to a better catchment than Leppington, particularly with a Schofield's extension to meet the existing Metro
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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tonyp wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:28 am The new urban centres require the railway first in order to develop.

The West Metro will eventually run on from Westmead to WSA and Bradfield, which would make an extension of the Leppington line to WSA redundant, particularly as the metro would provide a quicker journey to the Sydney CBD.

If the Western Sydney Metro was abandoned (not forgetting that it's part of a continuation the NW metro from Schofields down to Macarthur, so that would be abandoned too), the Leppington line would have to be extended, not only to Bradfield and WSA, but also to the business/industrial zone north of the airport, then to support developments at Luddenham and Orchard Hills. It would have to be extended so far north it would almost reach St Marys.

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You've missed the whole point of my post Tony. It's not about abandoning the Western Sydney Airport Metro in favour of the SWRL extension, but giving the latter a greater priority to provide a more immediate rail connection with the new airport when it opens in 2026, at half the cost. Infrastructure Australia said as much in concluding that the link to St Marys was not justified "at this time". Whether it's Metro or Sydney Trains is irrelevant. It's the proposed route to St Marys as an immediate priority that's the issue. It doesn't rule out continuing with the proposed metro extensions as later stages.

How long do you think it will be for Metro West to be extended to WSA and Bradfield (Aerotropolis) when the inner section from Westmead to the CBD is at least another decade away? I'd suggest the mid to late 2030s at the earliest, assuming future governments proceed with it. In the meantime, an extension of the SWRL to the airport can be completed in time for its opening in 2026. As I keep reiterating, it provides an earlier connection with the broader rail network than the St Marys link, as well as an immediate direct rail link with the CBD.

I take issue with your assertion that the Metro West extension to WSA would be quicker than an extended SWRL. In the latter case, whether with DD or compatible SD stock, it would be operating on upgraded infrastructure with digital signalling and ATO allowing closer headways and faster journey times, something which you continually ignore. It would be a semi-express service with long sections up to 130km/h on the East Hills Line compared with an all stations Metro West service with up to 100km/h between stations at best. In that scenario, the so called superior metro acceleration/deceleration characteristics or even dwell times, don't come into it.

Now that you mention it, it's not such a bad idea to extend the SWRL to St Marys, as well as Macarthur, which after all was the original intention. Metro Northwest could be extended from Tallawong to St Marys via Schofields.

The following critique by John Austen, who was a former senior official with Infrastructure Australia, is a sobering analysis.

https://johnmenadue.com/the-curious-cas ... rts-metro/
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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moa999 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:55 am The Fed Govt is willing to support it despite the IA report, because of the potential value impact on its bigger investment - IE. The Airport itself.

Quicker growth of the airport, means more chance of a quicker 'recycling' (sale) of the airport at a higher price.

And St.Marys provides access to a better catchment than Leppington, particularly with a Schofield's extension to meet the existing Metro
So are you suggesting that the Federal Government should ignore its own independent infrastructure body, when it gives such a damning assessment of this proposal? It sounds more like another rort to appease its State LNP counterparts for ideological reasons. Contrary to your assertion, the bigger investment would actually be the rail link proposal to St Marys, which at around $11B would be double the cost of the airport infrastructure itself.

How can you say with a straight face that the St Marys link provides a better catchment than Leppington, particularly in the more immediate term, when the SWRL provides access to Greater South Western Sydney, including the Southern Highlands? The Schofields' extension is decades away.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Transtopic wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:53 am How can you say with a straight face that the St Marys link provides a better catchment than Leppington, particularly in the more immediate term, when the SWRL provides access to Greater South Western Sydney, including the Southern Highlands? The Schofields' extension is decades away.
It would be good if they can give people from stations between Campbelltown and Glenfield direct access to the new airport but that will mean rebuilding the Leppington flyover at Glenfield to cater for the two extra access points from the south
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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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22 Sep
Final planning approval received for Western Sydney Airport metro


https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/fi ... nsw.gov.au
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jpp42
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Could the airport metro be extended southward to Leppington to provide cross platform interchange to Sydney Trains there (since there are four platforms, of which two could be converted like Chatswood)? That would allow access to Western Sydney airport from the south albeit possibly multiple changes for some passengers. And it would avoid the Leppington extension become too much of a stranded asset, while at the same time meeting the political goal of not expanding the Sydney Trains network.

I note there is a mention of "future strategic rail connection" (as with the northward extension to Schofields/Tallawong), so hopefully they are preserving corridor for this at least.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

It could.
But I think the preferred plan was to go further South, and connect the heavy rail to Bradfield (Aerotropolis) at an interchange.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Yes that was my understanding.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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The proposed Western Sydney Airport Metro is planned as the first stage of the longer term proposal for a metro line from Schofields to Macarthur. The first stage will run from St Marys to Bradfield (Aerotropolis) via the airport. The eventual Metro West extension from Westmead to Bradfield is a separate project with its own rail corridor, also via the airport which will have a 4 platform station box.

A further longer term extension of the SWRL as part of the Sydney Trains network was proposed from Leppington to Bradfield, and not to the airport, where it would interchange with the metro lines, but was given a low priority. As I have discussed many times on this thread, this was an absurd decision when the SWRL extension should have been the first priority including through to the airport itself, at half the cost, with the metro lines following later. It's little wonder that Infrastructure Australia was scathing of the metro proposal "at this time" and refused to place it on its Priority List. However, the State Government in its wisdom is pushing ahead with the metro proposal, although I haven't heard of any similar commitment from the Federal Government which is funding half the cost. If Labor wins the forthcoming Federal Election, which is a possibility, it's anyone's guess how this will pan out.

Curiously, the most recent Long Term Rail Strategy Diagram showed an extended Cumberland Line from Bradfield via the SWRL and South Line through Liverpool connecting directly with the proposed longer term metro line from Parramatta to Epping, although it is somewhat ambiguous in that it does not nominate whether it will be metro or an extension of the existing Sydney Trains network. Existing stations between Cabramatta and Merrylands would lose a direct link to the CBD and would have to interchange at Parramatta.

If it is proposed as a metro line, which would involve conversion of the SWRL and South Line from Leppington to Merrylands, then you would think that it would be logical to directly connect it with the Metro West airport extension at Bradfield, which would allow through services in both directions without the need to interchange and avoid the need for 6 platforms at Bradfield. As this line as a metro is likely to accommodate 8 car trains, it would operate independently of the Outer Western Metro line which is only proposed to accommodate 4 car trains long term and 3 cars initially.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

Using the same methodology I think Infrastructure Australia would have been equally scathing of an extension of the SWRL.

Put simply the Stage 1 scale of the Airport doesn't warrant much more than an express bus route and I don't see an expansion until the mid-2030s.

But a train line was determined politically as a must have and i suspect long term the Federal Government will be very happy because it will increase the growth rate (and thus value) of the airport.

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Re: WS Airport Metro

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moa999 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:28 pm Using the same methodology I think Infrastructure Australia would have been equally scathing of an extension of the SWRL.

Put simply the Stage 1 scale of the Airport doesn't warrant much more than an express bus route and I don't see an expansion until the mid-2030s.

But a train line was determined politically as a must have and i suspect long term the Federal Government will be very happy because it will increase the growth rate (and thus value) of the airport.
The government don't want to have a direct link between WS and Kingsford Smith airports as the SWRL is a Sydney Trains line that branches off the main south line at Glenfield
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Why is that reason?
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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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moa999 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:28 pm Using the same methodology I think Infrastructure Australia would have been equally scathing of an extension of the SWRL.

Put simply the Stage 1 scale of the Airport doesn't warrant much more than an express bus route and I don't see an expansion until the mid-2030s.

But a train line was determined politically as a must have and i suspect long term the Federal Government will be very happy because it will increase the growth rate (and thus value) of the airport.
I don't see it in isolation. It's part of a line between Schofields and Macarthur. It's good that they've kicked off the first part that serves the major activity core around the centre of the line. The completion of this section will make it harder for some non-proactive government in the future to decide to cancel the whole thing. I've seen too many cancelled rail projects in my life. If the opportunity is there to actually start them, it should be taken without hesitation.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

It was reported in the SMH on Monday that one of the projects under the Federal Government's infrastructure program is $17.5 million to prepare a business case for the Sydney Metro extension from Glenfield to Leppington and continuing on to Western Sydney Airport. That's the first time I've heard any mention of the intention to convert the SWRL to metro, although the 2056 long term rail network diagram ambiguously shows it as part of the Cumberland Line extended to Epping via Liverpool and Parramatta.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

Been discussed a bit on the SSC forum
Possibly the first sign of those plans changing.

It's a big $ number for a business case.

Some interesting comments from those discussion.
Any extension to Glenfield likely necessitates substantial rebuild of Glenfield, and loss of the Leppington depot for Sydney Trains.

Possible more sensible solution would be to turn it around at Leppington which is already four platforms.
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