WS Airport Metro

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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

From SMH:
A raft of internal documents released under freedom-of-information laws show Fire and Rescue NSW (FRNSW) had raised serious concerns about the safety implications for firefighters and the public about greater distances between cross-passages on multiple occasions over the last two years.

The agency warned Sydney Metro in January last year that greater distances between cross-passages in the tunnels would introduce “unacceptable health and safety risks to firefighters and other emergency responders”.

“It is our assessment that FRNSW and other emergency services in NSW do not currently and will not foreseeably have the capability or the capacity in outer suburban Sydney to provide safe intervention in [Sydney Metro] tunnels where the cross-passage spacing is greater than 240 metres,” it said in correspondence.

Underscoring the extent of the dispute, Fire Rescue NSW said in the correspondence last year that it “does not agree with Sydney Metro that it is acceptable to create a subterranean environment where emergency services are unable to intervene in the event of an emergency however unlikely”.

However, Fire and Rescue NSW assistant commissioner Trent Curtin said it had reached agreement with Sydney Metro on Wednesday to implement the 240-metre Australian standard for cross-passage spacings.

“FRNSW will continue to work with Sydney Metro to ensure the safety design principles in the Australian standards are met,” he said.

A Sydney Metro spokeswoman said both agencies had agreed to cross-passage spacing of about 240 metres except in areas where such a distance was not possible due to ground conditions or water pressure.

“Continued collaboration between both agencies has led to an outcome that ensures the safety of emergency services personnel, commuters, railway staff and construction workers,” she said.
"Raised concerns" is a lot different to "not approving". Surprising that FRNSW did not have greater influence in the approval process.
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jpp42
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by jpp42 »

I didn't realise the WS Airport metro had tunnels at all... does anyone have a map that shows this kind of detail?
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by alleve »

jpp42 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:19 am I didn't realise the WS Airport metro had tunnels at all... does anyone have a map that shows this kind of detail?
Wikipedia has an overview of where the tunnels are: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_ ... ey_Airport
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:14 am From SMH:
A raft of internal documents released under freedom-of-information laws show Fire and Rescue NSW (FRNSW) had raised serious concerns about the safety implications for firefighters and the public about greater distances between cross-passages on multiple occasions over the last two years.

The agency warned Sydney Metro in January last year that greater distances between cross-passages in the tunnels would introduce “unacceptable health and safety risks to firefighters and other emergency responders”.

“It is our assessment that FRNSW and other emergency services in NSW do not currently and will not foreseeably have the capability or the capacity in outer suburban Sydney to provide safe intervention in [Sydney Metro] tunnels where the cross-passage spacing is greater than 240 metres,” it said in correspondence.

Underscoring the extent of the dispute, Fire Rescue NSW said in the correspondence last year that it “does not agree with Sydney Metro that it is acceptable to create a subterranean environment where emergency services are unable to intervene in the event of an emergency however unlikely”.

However, Fire and Rescue NSW assistant commissioner Trent Curtin said it had reached agreement with Sydney Metro on Wednesday to implement the 240-metre Australian standard for cross-passage spacings.

“FRNSW will continue to work with Sydney Metro to ensure the safety design principles in the Australian standards are met,” he said.

A Sydney Metro spokeswoman said both agencies had agreed to cross-passage spacing of about 240 metres except in areas where such a distance was not possible due to ground conditions or water pressure.

“Continued collaboration between both agencies has led to an outcome that ensures the safety of emergency services personnel, commuters, railway staff and construction workers,” she said.
"Raised concerns" is a lot different to "not approving". Surprising that FRNSW did not have greater influence in the approval process.
I have been through the Submissions' and the Determination Reports for both Metro West Stage 1 and the WSA Metro and can't find any reference to submissions from Fire & Rescue NSW. While there are references in the reports to such things as "Noise and Vibration" and "Flooding and Hydrology", there doesn't appear, from what I can see, that there is any reference to "Fire Safety and Emergency Evacuation" in tunnels, which you would think would be a major consideration. There is certainly no evidence that Fire & Rescue NSW had previously approved the then tunnel design, as they didn't even make a submission. This all seems rather odd.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

The major transformation underway at St Marys railway station has taken another step forward, with Laing O’Rourke awarded an $82.5 million contract to build a new footbridge as part of the Sydney Metro–Western Sydney Airport mega-project.

https://www.railexpress.com.au/contract ... ootbridge/
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Station box work starting at Bradfield/Aerotropolis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mlaZfMkQq8&t
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

The biggest white elephant in Sydney's rail history. 60 peak hour passengers per 3 car train per line in the early years (880 passengers per hour in the peak). It's no wonder that Infrastructure Australia was so dismissive of the project, when there are other priorities. You have to ask the question why the extension and conversion of the SWRL to metro has suddenly come onto the agenda, when it was previously given a low priority as an extension of the existing network. Hopefully, the new government's inquiries will reveal some answers.

Strange that Siemens Mobility didn't mention that they have also been awarded contracts to upgrade the Sydney Trains network with digital signalling, ATO and a new Train Management System which can identify the location of every train on the network in real time. You would think that would be worth reporting.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

That would be a separate media release no doubt.

Well it's lucky there are now people with good vision planning Sydney's transport nowadays rather than naysayers. This is intended to become Sydney's main airport by 2060. Having a rail link from opening is essential as part of the startup, which will be busier than some people assume - not forgetting too that it's not only an airport.

It's also the first section of a line from Schofields to Macarthur, connecting the NW and SE through the airport precinct, a metro project which Labor supported in its election undertakings.
Last edited by tonyp on Sun May 14, 2023 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Linto63
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: This is intended to become Sydney's main airport by 2060.
Mascot will always be the main airport, at least for passenger movements. Much more convenient for the majority of the population.
tonyp wrote: It's also the first section of a line from Schfields to Macarthur, connecting the NW and SE through the airport precinct, a metro project which Labor supported in its election undertakings.
The government has committed itself to a feasibility study, the results of which will determine whether it then gets built. It most likely will, but not until the 2030s.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

WSA is expandable in stages and by 2060 it is planned to be the largest international airport in Australia, with a capacity of 82 million passengers per annum (cf. KSA, constrained by its curfew, with a capacity limit of about 60 million passengers per annum). Internationally, only Atlanta, USA, currently moves more pax p.a. than WSI's design provides for. WSA's ultimate design has massive capacity, far greater than KSI or Tullamarine. Few people seem to grasp that. It's not being designed as a small, secondary airport.

https://westernsydney.com.au/your-airpo ... ite-layout

The general long-term scenario is that KSI will serve the eastern Sydney market and WSI the western Sydney and regional market. The Sydney basin population is currently roughly balanced between eastern and western Sydney and the balance is creeping westwards, which is now equivalent to having a Brisbane or Perth in western Sydney.

The metro network as planned is fundamental to this with, not only the Western Sydney Metro connecting the NW and SW to the WSA precinct, but ultimately the Metro West connecting the three cities east-west, thus connecting WSA directly through Parramatta to Sydney, about a 40-45 minute overall journey. Then there's the Bankstown-Liverpool-Glenfield-WSA connection which solidifies it even more.

None of this is optional in terms of the overall plan, it's an integral whole, but of course we'll go through the stop-start of politics where the Coalition, when it's in office, will push ahead and Labor, when it's in office will cancel or stall and, true to form, Albanese has cancelled a lot of transport projects, while in NSW Minns has blinked and there's no guarantee what he'll do. But WSA is now embedded and Western Sydney Metro stage one with it.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

There should should be buses that link suburbs along Mamre road between St Merrys and the new airport so places like St Clare and Kemps Creek get a transport link to WSA
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Aurora »

KSI has been holding this city back, the new western airport should charge the city’s growth over the next century or two. The Metro will provide infrastructure for the future growth and development of the area, which typically successive governments have been too slow to provide previously.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 11:18 am There should should be buses that link suburbs along Mamre road between St Merrys and the new airport so places like St Clare and Kemps Creek get a transport link to WSA
They are unlikely to provide direct services from every suburb to the airport. Local services may get rerouted to stop at the stations.

I'm sure this is being considered as part of the overall transport planning.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

The airport area will include a business park and a small city adjacent, thus creating a major new focal point for the region, so doubtless local bus services will be completely replanned, taking the new urban structure into account. Some express buses from points on the suburban rail lines to the airport, not served by metro, will also be in the mix.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Few people seem to grasp that. It's not being designed as a small, secondary airport.
What it is being designed as and what it ends up as are different things. The majority of inbound traffic will be wanting to go to destinations in the eastern half of the city, and the more affluent eastern half will continue to generate more outbound traffic than the western half. WSA won't be a regional outpost with a handful of services like Avalon is to Melbourne, but it is unlikely to supersede Mascot either.
tonyp wrote: ...but of course we'll go through the stop-start of politics where the Coalition, when it's in office, will push ahead and Labor, when it's in office will cancel or stall
The line that you peddle that only Liberal governments build infrastructure is a bit of a myth. Labor and Liberal governments have both been good and bad in equal measure. Of the past four NSW governments, both sides have delivered one good and one poor.
tonyp wrote: true to form, Albanese has cancelled a lot of transport projects
With the cost of delivering projects skyrocketing as well as the cost of servicing the debt, something had to give regardless of which party was in power.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:26 am
tonyp wrote: It's also the first section of a line from Schfields to Macarthur, connecting the NW and SE through the airport precinct, a metro project which Labor supported in its election undertakings.
The government has committed itself to a feasibility study, the results of which will determine whether it then gets built. It most likely will, but not until the 2030s.
That's correct and I'm sure that the previous government had also made a commitment to only fund the feasibility/business cases. It shouldn't be assumed that they will turn out positive or that funding would be available even if there is a positive outcome, in view of there being other competing infrastructure projects. Agree though that the extensions will likely go ahead now that the central section is committed to, but could be delayed, so we will have to wait and see.

Not so sure about the extension and conversion to metro of the SWRL from Glenfield to Bradfield, for which preparation of a business case is already underway, and which the new Minns Labor government has also committed to, i.e. the business case and not the project itself. If this project were to proceed, then I still think it would be a stand-alone metro line rather than connecting directly with the WSA - St Marys metro, which is more likely to be extended to Macarthur as originally intended.

The new Labor government must have good reason for not committing to business cases for the Metro West extension from Westmead to WSA and the Bankstown to Glenfield extension and metro conversion, which in the case of the latter will have some bearing on the Glenfield to Bradfield metro conversion. There's more to this than meets the eye and it shouldn't be just put down to Labor ineptitude as some on here would have you believe. This isn't the time for taking cheap political shots. I'm looking forward to the outcomes of the Sydney Trains and Sydney Metro inquiries.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:43 pm
tonyp wrote: Few people seem to grasp that. It's not being designed as a small, secondary airport.
What it is being designed as and what it ends up as are different things. The majority of inbound traffic will be wanting to go to destinations in the eastern half of the city, and the more affluent eastern half will continue to generate more outbound traffic than the western half. WSA won't be a regional outpost with a handful of services like Avalon is to Melbourne, but it is unlikely to supersede Mascot either.
tonyp wrote: ...but of course we'll go through the stop-start of politics where the Coalition, when it's in office, will push ahead and Labor, when it's in office will cancel or stall
The line that you peddle that only Liberal governments build infrastructure is a bit of a myth. Labor and Liberal governments have both been good and bad in equal measure. Of the past four NSW governments, both sides have delivered one good and one poor.
tonyp wrote: true to form, Albanese has cancelled a lot of transport projects
With the cost of delivering projects skyrocketing as well as the cost of servicing the debt, something had to give regardless of which party was in power.
Again, you're on the money Linto63. The majority of inbound tourists, who are never mentioned as a component of the airport's patronage, are more likely be heading for eastern destinations and the reverse to WSA when outbound. If, as expected, WSA will become a hub for low cost airlines in tandem with some upmarket services, it will draw patronage from all over Sydney and the regions as well as having the advantage of 24 hour operation. Whether it ever supersedes the existing Sydney Airport as the dominant airport remains to be seen, but I won't certainly be around to see it.

Although desirable, the priority of having a rail link with WSA isn't essential, especially in the early years. After all, Sydney Airport has operated successfully for decades without a rail link and even now does so with the impost of high station access fees on the existing line. If these fees were abolished, then the existing Airport Line patronage would be increased significantly.

The previous NSW government conned the Feds into jointly funding the St Marys to WSA metro line to develop their 3 cities plan with the establishment of the Aerotropolis or Bradfield as it is now known. It really had nothing to do with providing a viable rail connection with the new airport, although it is a long term option.

If there was an intention to provide an early rail link with WSA from the broader Sydney Region, including eastern Sydney and the CBD, then the bleedingly obvious solution was to extend the SWRL from Leppington to the airport at half the cost and not just to the Aerotropolis. Extending the SWRL to St Marys with a branch to Narellan had previously been the long term plan. However, that would involve extension of the existing Sydney Trains network and didn't fit within the then Liberal government's ideological metro expansion agenda. A serious misjudgement IMO.

Seriously, how many airport travellers with destinations in eastern Sydney and the CBD, or even Parramatta, are going to be bothered to use the WSA line to St Marys and then interchange to T1 services? Not many, I'd suggest. A more direct and faster link via the SWRL to both Parramatta via the Cumberland Line and the CBD via the East Hills Line would be preferable without the need to interchange with luggage, which is no doubt why the extension and conversion of the SWRL has suddenly come back onto the agenda, although converting it to metro would be a mistake.

Albanese hasn't yet cancelled any transport projects, but the Infrastructure Minister has foreshadowed a 90 day review of all Federal funding commitments, which is within the right of a new government, considering the pressures on the budget.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

No guarantee any SWRL line extension would have been any more than a shuttle. It's already a complex enough operating pattern at the Harris Park-Granville T.

And future improvements to the Sydney Train system are going to require more people to transfer for the benefit of the overall system.

Personally don't see it as a Metro v Train decision.
St.Marys is much closer to more Sydney siders than Glenfield, and the Sydney network needs an outer North-South line and this is the first stage of that plan.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

moa999 wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 11:26 pm No guarantee any SWRL line extension would have been any more than a shuttle. It's already a complex enough operating pattern at the Harris Park-Granville T.

And future improvements to the Sydney Train system are going to require more people to transfer for the benefit of the overall system.

Personally don't see it as a Metro v Train decision.
St.Marys is much closer to more Sydney siders than Glenfield, and the Sydney network needs an outer North-South line and this is the first stage of that plan.
Really? I disagree. With the proposed upgrades to the Sydney Trains network, increasing frequencies and reducing journey times, the current T2 SWRL services and any extension could potentially be redirected to the CBD via the East Hills and Airport Lines as part of T8, which will have the capacity of 24tph or even more if some express services operated to Sydney Terminal. The Illawarra Local from Wolli Creek to ST will only have potentially 6tph SCO Intercity and possibly 4tph SHL Intercity and with the Sydney Terminal Area Reconfiguration project, there will be plenty of spare capacity for terminating services. Cumberland Line services could also continue to operate at a higher frequency with a direct service to Parramatta, which would be quicker than going via St Marys with an interchange.

St Marys is not much closer than Glenfield to the rest of Sydney, as St Marys is on the fringe of the Sydney metro area and Glenfield is closer to eastern Sydney and the broader rail network, not to mention the fast developing South West Growth Region which is larger than the North West.

Here's an idea. What about investing more in addressing the shortcomings of the existing network?
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Bear in mind that there is space for only two track pairs passing through Bradfield, WSA and the business park, being built right now, both with metro tunnel profile. One is allocated to the St Marys-Bradfield line and one to the future extension of the West Metro. At present, as the plan stands, there is no provision for the Leppington suburban line to even enter the precinct, let alone serve the airport. The thinking has been more inclined towards extending one of the metro lines to Leppington, Glenfield or beyond.

Let's say hypothetically we could extend the Leppington suburban line to the Airport. If you look at the running times (allowing for Leppington line trains to run straight through to Sydney via East Hills without interchange), it will take about the same time (about 1 hour) to get to Central via either St Marys or Leppington, tapping into express trains. (The future direct West Metro connection, which links the three cities, will take about 40-45 minutes between WSA and Sydney via Parramatta.)

The major advantage of the St Marys route as the initial link is that it runs through Parramatta, which is really essential - WSA being a western Sydney airport and all that. This is why they've chosen the St Marys link as the initial connection and not the Glenfield direction where there is no significant centre along the route to Sydney.

One can see, however, from discussions in recent times that there is some concern at the lack of a rail link between WSA and its precinct with the SW and Campbelltown. So eyes are turned south here, not towards Sydney. The plan is that the Western Sydney Metro will extend south to Macarthur via Oran Park and Narellan. Subsequently there has been consideration of an interim "quick link" to the Main South at Glenfield as a means of serving Campbelltown direction, albeit with a change of trains. Whether it's going to be the Oran Park or the Leppington route, we'll find out before too long no doubt.

The other issue to bear in mind is that WSA will become the airport of preference for western and southern interurban and country fliers (and later from the north when West Metro is fully opened) and those long distance trains will stop to interchange at St Marys in the west and either Macarthur or Glenfield, whichever is chosen, in the south (and North Strathfield from the north).
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:02 am Bear in mind that there is space for only two track pairs passing through Bradfield, WSA and the business park, being built right now, both with metro tunnel profile. One is allocated to the St Marys-Bradfield line and one to the future extension of the West Metro. At present, as the plan stands, there is no provision for the Leppington suburban line to even enter the precinct, let alone serve the airport. The thinking has been more inclined towards extending one of the metro lines to Leppington, Glenfield or beyond.

Let's say hypothetically we could extend the Leppington suburban line to the Airport. If you look at the running times (allowing for Leppington line trains to run straight through to Sydney via East Hills without interchange), it will take about the same time (about 1 hour) to get to Central via either St Marys or Leppington, tapping into express trains. (The future direct West Metro connection, which links the three cities, will take about 40-45 minutes between WSA and Sydney via Parramatta.)

The major advantage of the St Marys route as the initial link is that it runs through Parramatta, which is really essential - WSA being a western Sydney airport and all that. This is why they've chosen the St Marys link as the initial connection and not the Glenfield direction where there is no significant centre along the route to Sydney.

One can see, however, from discussions in recent times that there is some concern at the lack of a rail link between WSA and its precinct with the SW and Campbelltown. So eyes are turned south here, not towards Sydney. The plan is that the Western Sydney Metro will extend south to Macarthur via Oran Park and Narellan. Subsequently there has been consideration of an interim "quick link" to the Main South at Glenfield as a means of serving Campbelltown direction, albeit with a change of trains. Whether it's going to be the Oran Park or the Leppington route, we'll find out before too long no doubt.

The other issue to bear in mind is that WSA will become the airport of preference for western and southern interurban and country fliers (and later from the north when West Metro is fully opened) and those long distance trains will stop to interchange at St Marys in the west and either Macarthur or Glenfield, whichever is chosen, in the south (and North Strathfield from the north).
I'm not sure about the 2 track pairs through the airport precinct as they are being constructed separately under the airport contract and not by TfNSW. I'd like to see some definite confirmation that the airport tunnels are being constructed to the narrower metro profile. AFAIK, the only line currently being constructed is the St Marys link, which it appears will only accommodate 4 car trains. There are no plans that I'm aware of that have been released which show the detail of the future station boxes at Bradfield, WSA or the Airport Business Park, although in the case of the latter which is on the surface, it's been mentioned that space has been reserved adjacent to the St Marys Line platforms.

I don't know where you get the idea from that there is no provision for separate platforms for the SWRL extension from Leppington terminating at Bradfield. This has always been the plan, which by my calculation would require 6 platforms including the 2 metro lines. I acknowledge that there are no current plans to extend the SWRL to WSA. But what if the West Metro tunnel and platforms haven't yet been constructed, as that is a longer term plan? Even though there may be some thinking of extending one of the metro lines to Leppington or Glenfield, more likely the Metro West extension if it sees the light of day, there is no guarantee that it will actually happen, as it's still subject to the outcome of the business case now underway.

With the changes in government at the Federal and State levels and reviews into current infrastructure projects, nothing can be taken for granted. Everything is on the table and subject to further scrutiny. The new State Labor government has not committed to a business case for extension of Metro West to WSA or Bankstown to Glenfield and I believe that they must have good reason for doing so. Perhaps they're duds in the light of other options. If the Minns government doesn't implode, then it could be in for another couple of terms. If the Metro West extension doesn't proceed, then that throws everything up for grabs.

There's no way that it would be quicker to travel from WSA to the CBD via St Marys, interchanging with T1, compared with a direct express service via the East Hills Line with signalling upgrades and faster journey times, where existing rolling stock could travel up to 130km/h. Even travelling direct to Parramatta via the Cumberland Line would be faster. As for Metro West, it may never be extended to WSA. Who knows?

WSA is actually closer to Liverpool than St Marys or Penrith and is firmly established within the South West Growth Region. This why they have belatedly switched their attention to prioritising the SWRL which also can provide a faster rail link to the CBD. Whether it is converted to metro remains to be seen. I suspect not.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

If you enlarge this plan, you will see the two track pairs going through the airport in a very narrow corridor:

https://westernsydney.com.au/sites/defa ... 082MAP.pdf
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:24 am If you enlarge this plan, you will see the two track pairs going through the airport in a very narrow corridor:

https://westernsydney.com.au/sites/defa ... 082MAP.pdf
Thanks for that. Have you noticed any information about the progress of the actual construction of the airport stations and tunnels (not including Bradfield)?

I note the different platform lengths for the 2 lines at the Terminal and Business Park stations.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:39 pm Thanks for that. Have you noticed any information about the progress of the actual construction of the airport stations and tunnels (not including Bradfield)?

I note the different platform lengths for the 2 lines at the Terminal and Business Park stations.
The TBMs are already underground. The station boxes for underground stations are being excavated. Here's Bradfield a month or so ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mlaZfMkQq8
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