NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Er, we've had electric buses since the late 19th century and particularly since the 1920s. Probably initially more rapidly than motor buses in fact. The war was over before you were born (assuming you're under 100!). It's simply entered a new phase off the back of technological advances made since the 1990s in the trolleybus and tram industries.
While some may like to think that we are taking up the use of electric traction from where we left off with trolleybuses in the 1950s, it is a totally different game. Yes they are both powered by electricity, but that's is where the similarity stops.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:15 pm While some may like to think that we are taking up the use of electric traction from where we left off with trolleybuses in the 1950s, it is a totally different game. Yes they are both powered by electricity, but that's is where the similarity stops.
With respect, you're talking through your hat. What you wrote shows that you know nothing about the industry or the technology. There's been no "where we left off", the electric bus has been an unbroken continuum over time, the drive system remains fundamentally the same, electricals have evolved into electronics, the power collection now has more options, that's all, and the technology has evolved to diversify those options, whether plain on-line collection, pure battery, or a combination of options in between, involving static or dynamic collectors of various types.

They're all on the same page, literally - open the catalogues of manufacturers like Hess or Skoda and you'll see the same bus models, each with a range of power options from collector only to battery only and everything in between offered (and in some cases diesel too). Just that in Australia we've only seen the options at each end of the spectrum so observers like you have only a outdated black and white view. However, in Brisbane we'll soon be seeing one of the in-between options on the spectrum, then perhaps some of the local ignorance about the subject will dissipate.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Obviously the drive and electrical systems in the current electric vehicles themselves have a fair bit in common with modern day trolleybuses. But in terms of infrastructure, the old one had wires and substations, what is being introduced involves at depot charging and batteries. So unlike the light rail where we essentially went back to the same rails in roads and wires strung from poles principle, we are going down a very different path.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:05 pm Obviously the drive and electrical systems in the current electric vehicles themselves have a fair bit in common with modern day trolleybuses. But in terms of infrastructure, the old one had wires and substations, what is being introduced involves at depot charging and batteries. So unlike the light rail where we essentially went back to the same rails in roads and wires strung from poles principle, we are going down a very different path.
The drive and electrical systems are identical. The supply has a wider range of options to support it. All involve infrastructure of some sort. Similar evolution with trams except that being much heavier vehicles, autonomous range is less.

There's also the fuel cell option that I haven't mentioned.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

The Busabout BYD e buses have a single leaf centre door like the Punchbowl ones where I believed they where double leaf centre like the ones operating in region 6 I passed one waiting for the lights at Campbelltown road Leumeah on a Campbelltown bound 879 while on my way home from work on Tuesday afternoon couldn't get a photo as the car I was in was turning left and the bus was the last vehicle in a line of 4 or 5 vehicle waiting to cross into Woodbine
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:39 am The Busabout BYD e buses have a single leaf centre door like the Punchbowl ones where I believed they where double leaf centre like the ones operating in region 6 I passed one waiting for the lights at Campbelltown road Leumeah on a Campbelltown bound 879 while on my way home from work on Tuesday afternoon couldn't get a photo as the car I was in was turning left and the bus was the last vehicle in a line of 4 or 5 vehicle waiting to cross into Woodbine
I thought TfNSW mandated double leaf centre doors in Sydney metropolitan regions.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:10 am
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:39 am The Busabout BYD e buses have a single leaf centre door like the Punchbowl ones where I believed they where double leaf centre like the ones operating in region 6 I passed one waiting for the lights at Campbelltown road Leumeah on a Campbelltown bound 879 while on my way home from work on Tuesday afternoon couldn't get a photo as the car I was in was turning left and the bus was the last vehicle in a line of 4 or 5 vehicle waiting to cross into Woodbine
I thought TfNSW mandated double leaf centre doors in Sydney metropolitan regions.
The smart operators look for loopholes when it comes to things like mandates. Contract mandates aren't foolproof unless Transport For NSW make up non negotiable contracts with no way to create any loopholes
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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I think loopholes is not the right word. But these matters are negotiable.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:14 pm I think loopholes is not the right word. But these matters are negotiable.
Another symptom of TfNSW's weak leadership on standards, quite the opposite of PTA WA. Even PTV is showing signs of firming up on bus design standards, though TfNSW still has its slack equivalents in the other states and territories. There is a general lazy attitude that a bus is a bus, without any acknowledgement that there are efficiency, productivity and passenger amenity issues in bus design, as there are for any type of public transport vehicle.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Punchbowl BYDs seat 42 vs 38 on Transit Systems' examples. Presumably they came to the conclusion that extra seats were worth more than a wider door. It's not as if double leaf doors have the advantage of allowing people to enter / exit side by side as they used to
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:20 pm Punchbowl BYDs seat 42 vs 38 on Transit Systems' examples. Presumably they came to the conclusion that extra seats were worth more than a wider door. It's not as if double leaf doors have the advantage of allowing people to enter / exit side by side as they used to
Those operators should be ordering Elements with 43 seats and a double leaf centre door. Part of the problem is some operators aren't tuned in to the best specs. This is why agency minimum standard-setting is important.

Passenger movement doesn't necessarily have to be side by side. Zipper flow through a double-leaf door definitely moves passengers through faster than a single leaf. I've seen timed demos at a manufacturer in Europe. Single leafs are absolutely terrible for passenger exchange. This is why double leaf is pretty universally specified for busy major city operations. Also, with a 20-25 year lifespan and growth constantly occurring in urban areas, an operator should be thinking ahead to how a vehicle will handle traffic in ten or twenty years.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Operators will order buses from the approved list based on their assessment criteria. While the Element's fans will believe that it should be the only bus ordered by all TfNSW operators going forward, unlikely that it will play out that way.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:37 pm
Linto63 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:20 pm Punchbowl BYDs seat 42 vs 38 on Transit Systems' examples. Presumably they came to the conclusion that extra seats were worth more than a wider door. It's not as if double leaf doors have the advantage of allowing people to enter / exit side by side as they used to
Those operators should be ordering Elements with 43 seats and a double leaf centre door. Part of the problem is some operators aren't tuned in to the best specs. This is why agency minimum standard-setting is important.
This is why the government should set the specs for buses then the agency can tell the operators these are our bus specs so how many do you want. It would be good if Transport For NSW can tell the other body builders that if they want to build buses for operators in NSW then start a manufacturing plant up in NSW
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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That last sentence does not make sense. Just because a manufacturer opens in NSW does not mean they will meet operators' requirements.
Living in the Shire.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Volgren set up a plant in NSW about 10 years ago and got burnt when orders didn’t materialise.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:45 pm This is why the government should set the specs for buses then the agency can tell the operators these are our bus specs so how many do you want. It would be good if Transport For NSW can tell the other body builders that if they want to build buses for operators in NSW then start a manufacturing plant up in NSW
TfNSW does set minimum standard specs for buses but their benchmarks are slack and below best practice. Combine this with operators who don't appear to have much nous about good bus design. I'm surprised that such an old, experienced company as Punchbowl would think that the best solution to fitting more seats would be to drop down to a single leaf door when there are the same type of buses on the market (and the Element is not the only one) that provide even more seating while retaining a double leaf door. That's really slack.

NSW government is now encouraging manufacturers to set up in NSW with firm orders. Such is the case with Bustech I understand.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

I note in Fleetlists that Interline has added a couple more BCI electrics to join its existing one, meanwhile continuing to acquire a greater number of Yutong electrics. Although the BCI is also Chinese, presumably because it's designed by BCI it has a significantly higher seating capacity than the poorly-designed BYD and Yutong, while still retaining double leaf doors. It baffles me why some operators choose poorer bus designs over better ones. This is something where TfNSW should be taking firmer control.
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1whoknows
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by 1whoknows »

In the case of Interline I think you will find its the price differential with Yutong being considerably cheaper.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

1whoknows wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:51 am In the case of Interline I think you will find its the price differential with Yutong being considerably cheaper.
I have no doubt this is the case influencing the decisions by many operators to purchase the two wholly Chinese brands, no different to what has been happening with diesel buses over the past few years. Quality of design and build only comes second as a consideration. The fact that the Chinese buses are designed for a shorter life doesn't come into it when the government is paying for the buses.

I don't know what sort of price figures are prevailing out there, but, conventionally, electric buses cost about 50% more than a diesel bus, which would place the figure around $700,000 or so. However, the battery situation seems to me to be financially fluid (but still expensive) and I have seen an indication that the Bustech ZDi is costing about $1 million. At that sort of price, they are going to have trouble gaining market traction against the Chinese models, regardless of the better design, higher capacity and longer life that the Australian/European models bring. In the end, financial largesse is limited and more buses for the budget is likely to win over less for the budget.
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gilberations
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Can anyone answer this. Why has NSW not gone with a European style (and possibly Asian I’m not sure) of bus stop/interchange superchargers? I.e. when the bus has timetables dwell time it raises a pantograph to OHW style thing ala Newcastle light rail, to give the batteries a quick boost? Surely they could have been installed at layover areas, or in the case of some high capacity routes, at major stops such as the set down stop at wynyard for bridge services, etc.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

gilberations wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:46 am Can anyone answer this. Why has NSW not gone with a European style (and possibly Asian I’m not sure) of bus stop/interchange superchargers? I.e. when the bus has timetables dwell time it raises a pantograph to OHW style thing ala Newcastle light rail, to give the batteries a quick boost? Surely they could have been installed at layover areas, or in the case of some high capacity routes, at major stops such as the set down stop at wynyard for bridge services, etc.
That'll doubtless come with high capacity buses like artics but it's not necessary with 12 metre buses because they have the range on one charge to run for a whole day. The reason you see those "flash chargers" are from the earlier days of battery buses when range was not so great. The price you pay for being first cab off the rank. It's always better with new technology to wait for others to bear the costs of trialling and then make a move when the technology is proven and cost-effective.

Then we had the late (un)lamented Andrew Constance providing CAF with a free test bed for its opportunity charge system at the expense of the NSW taxpayer. At least the APS in Sydney was already proven - proven to be expensive and not cost effective that is and we took it anyway.
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gilberations
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by gilberations »

Thank you Tonyp. I didn’t realize that it was a result of lower range earlier tech. I’d seen it mostly in London deckers but I put that to yay London haha. I’d imagine then too there’s potential scope with decker routes or even long bus only lane / tway routes that straight up overhead widening and pantographs for parts on those sections, like they’re trialing with trucks on highways in Europe?
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »


gilberations wrote:Can anyone answer this. Why has NSW not gone with a European style (and possibly Asian I’m not sure) of bus stop/interchange superchargers?
Not particularly common in either region. More for specific tasks.

A few China systems have catenary when they have a long central express corridor and then the buses fan out on local routes. So these buses have a higher average distance travelled per day so need the extra charging.
Similar Brisbane "Metro" is going for Hess's propriety flash charging at some stops, depots and terminus.

But it adds big $s both in the trolley system and the infrastructure and more things to go wrong.

But it's a bit of a trade off in system cost, versus battery cost on the bus and any weight limits that result.

A cheaper way of doing it would just be to add fast charging points at common layover/terminus points where they exist, and have decent power availability (itself a problem in many places)
Say for example Bondi Junction interchange where buses or often parked up against the wall.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Glen »

The at-stop pantograph charging system on the Newcastle trams is extremely slow.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

gilberations wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:06 am Thank you Tonyp. I didn’t realize that it was a result of lower range earlier tech. I’d seen it mostly in London deckers but I put that to yay London haha. I’d imagine then too there’s potential scope with decker routes or even long bus only lane / tway routes that straight up overhead widening and pantographs for parts on those sections, like they’re trialing with trucks on highways in Europe?
They're using it for the new Brisbane double-artic "metro" buses at termini. Any high-capacity type of bus needs it because of the greater weight of the vehicle - until such day as they develop the technology to drive these extra-heavy vehicles all day without top up. The alternative to such opportunity charging is in-motion charging which eliminates the downtime during service caused by the need to top up charge. This involves running on wire through trolley poles for part of the route, charging the batteries en route. Another advantage of this method is that the bus needs less batteries, thus reducing weight.

This method is finding favour in some European cities that already have a power supply system in place for their trams, like Berlin and Prague, so it's relatively economic to install and run compared to an opportunity charging system. The first new line in Prague, replacing a diesel route, opens this year with a fleet of articulated trolley/battery buses with a capacity of about 135, considerably more than if it was a heavier, pure battery bus. Overhead wiring is necessary only on 50% of the route.

Cost-wise, opportunity charging is best avoided, but the alternative without trolley wires is more battery capacity which adds weight, thus the passenger capacity of the bus plummets - exemplified by the Custom Denning Element which can easily carry 80 but is regulated to 63 because of the additional battery weight (hence axle load). I don't believe that the significance of this issue is fully appreciated yet. You can understand why European municipal operations, which are acutely cost-conscious, make decisions to get the most capacity out of a finite fleet rather than lose capacity as a result of an alternative electric system and thus have to buy more buses and employ more drivers. Nothing is black and white about electrification. Greater understanding of the multiplicity of issues is needed.
Glen wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:42 am The at-stop pantograph charging system on the Newcastle trams is extremely slow.
Amen to that. Says it all.
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