NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Stonesourscotty
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stonesourscotty »

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BAMBAM
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by BAMBAM »

Words out potentially Keolis Downer Northern Beaches will trialling a CD Element bus.
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Swift
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

BAMBAM wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:16 pm Words out potentially Keolis Downer Northern Beaches will trialling a CD Element bus.
It'll be their first electric PT of any kind since the Narrabeen tram and the first for north of Narra ever.

The B line deckers would be good candidates to go EV as it will feel more like a tram line that way, going up the length of the NB. London already uses them extensively.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 2:11 pm It'll be their first electric PT of any kind since the Narrabeen tram and the first for north of Narra ever.

The B line deckers would be good candidates to go EV as it will feel more like a tram line that way, going up the length of the NB. London already uses them extensively.
The problem with battery double deckers and artics is that they're going to need downtime for charging during operation, so this will have to be scheduled into layovers and the opportunity for recovery from late running during layovers will be lost. Then there's possible loss of capacity due to axle load. That can be mitigated by having less batteries, but then the bus will need more regular opportunity charging.

The ideal for a long, high-demand fixed route like B1 is the battery trolleybus (if not, better still, a tram or train). The biggest issue with the B1 double deck operation is its pathetic line capacity. It's only a token gesture towards better public transport for the region. Without its supporting regiment of artics and other buses, it would achieve 2/5 of bugger all. The Element would contribute only to the ranks of the existing rigid buses, albeit offering more comfort and efficiency.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Then there's possible loss of capacity due to axle load.
That is the nature of electric buses, be they rigid, decker or artic. Double decker buses from BYD and Wright have quoted ranges of 300km. I doubt there would be many diesel shifts that do more than that today.
tonyp wrote: The ideal for a long, high-demand fixed route like B1 is the battery trolleybus (if not, better still, a tram or train).
That's not on anybody's radar, so we can rule that out as a realistic option

The B1 is the ideal route for buses that require recharging as many, if not all, journeys cycle through Mona Vale depot at the end of each trip. But it already has a young fleet and from an emissions point of view, buses operating all stops services are far more polluting than those on limited stops services.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Linto63 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:21 pm The B1 is the ideal route for buses that require recharging as many, if not all, journeys cycle through Mona Vale depot at the end of each trip. But it already has a young fleet and from an emissions point of view, buses operating all stops services are far more polluting than those on limited stops services.
Even if you're passing through a depot or somewhere with flash recharging, if that is absolutely necessary at the end of trips, the point of cascading late running is quite valid. In the event of a delay that causes several buses to bunch up, you then have the further issue of queues for the recharging points and buses unable to continue until recharged, further compounding any delay.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

As relatively new.. the B1 doubles aren't getting replaced anytime soon.

Will be more interesting to see whats proposed for the artics replacement, and whether the new Minister has a different viewpoint about artics.

And while I agree a trolleybus or part trolley/battery is good for a high capacity frequent route - Nimby complaints about visual pollution will stymie it.

I do wonder whether you could build in catenary to say a tunnel roof where the visual impact isn't there. Maybe revisit that in a decade when Beaches Link gets put back on the table.
Last edited by moa999 on Sat May 20, 2023 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

The diesel deckers can be redeployed elsewhere if replaced by E versions.
IE: regular routes. *boom* radical idea. Don't have an aneurism at the suggestion!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by alleve »

Removing the option of buying artics is such a stupid policy, so I really hope the new Govt has some better ideas regarding artics.

Which brands offer electric artics? Surprised I haven't seen anything from Custom Coaches about an articulated Element. Surely Volvo or Scania must offer something?

Not that it'll ever happen but it would be ideal if the NSW Govt warmed up to trolleybuses. I'm thinking double articulated trolleybuses running the 333, much like those found in places like Lausanne.
Swift wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:55 pm The diesel deckers can be redeployed elsewhere if replaced by E versions.
IE: regular routes. *boom* radical idea. Don't have an aneurism at the suggestion!
That's true, although I think the usefulness of deckers on a lot of routes is limited by stop spacing and of course height restrictions along the route. Theoretically a great idea, could see it working well on routes like the 420.

On the same theme, if they get a move on with buying electric artics, it'll allow older buses to be retired and existing artics to be moved to high capacity routes that are still stuck with rigids. Even if electric artics are ordered for Waverley alone, it would allow for the Oranas to be retired and would be great for passengers on the 324, 350, 370, 373, 374, 390x, etc
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stu »

Route 420 is currently not suitable for double decker buses due to Subway Rd. The Railway St overpass is an old brick arched bridge with 4.2m clearance at the centre pitch and only 3.8 above each kerb side.

The T4 line bridge is 4.2m high across the entire width of Subway Rd.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by alleve »

Stu wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 6:36 pm Route 420 is currently not suitable for double decker buses due to Subway Rd. The Railway St overpass is an old brick arched bridge with 4.2m clearance at the centre pitch and only 3.8 above each kerb side.

The T4 line bridge is 4.2m high across the entire width of Subway Rd.
I'm aware, that's why I said "like the 420". I'm using it as an example of what kind of rigid 12.5m routes would benefit from deckers
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

We had Atlanteans doing all kinds of routes in the 70s.
We can do it again.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 6:07 pm Which brands offer electric artics? Surprised I haven't seen anything from Custom Coaches about an articulated Element. Surely Volvo or Scania must offer something?
Just about any electric bus manufacturer will offer an electric artic if there's a demand for it. Custom Denning is ready to go on either deckers or artics (or both) but of course, like all manufacturers, is waiting to see which way TfNSW turns.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

BAMBAM wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:16 pm Words out potentially Keolis Downer Northern Beaches will trialling a CD Element bus.
More than just trialling by the look of it:

https://www.northernbeachesadvocate.com ... T4a1yHiElA
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

I really have nothing against the Newcastle ZDI's (besides the return of the unnecessary rear door step that is a hazard in itself) However is there any reason why their suddenly going for the element over the ZDI Bustechs as they seemed pretty quick to jump on the ZDI without really trialing anything else up in Newcastle?

My only logical thought is it's because NB would already have an assortment of the later custom series bodied buses as part of the fleet but on the other hand they also have VST's too so maybe not so much this?

I'm 99% dreaming here but what are the odds that if their happy with the CDE, They'll also order some for Newcastle alongside future ZDI's?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by alleve »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:56 pm I really have nothing against the Newcastle ZDI's (besides the return of the unnecessary rear door step that is a hazard in itself) However is there any reason why their suddenly going for the element over the ZDI Bustechs as they seemed pretty quick to jump on the ZDI without really trialing anything else up in Newcastle?

My only logical thought is it's because NB would already have an assortment of the later custom series bodied buses as part of the fleet but on the other hand they also have VST's too so maybe not so much this?

I'm 99% dreaming here but what are the odds that if their happy with the CDE, They'll also order some for Newcastle alongside future ZDI's?
I thought the ZDI doesn't have a rear door step, unlike the VSTs?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

alleve wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:34 pm I thought the ZDI doesn't have a rear door step, unlike the VSTs?
One of the frustrating quirks about the Newcastle VST's is it took until reaching Fleet No 2828 to finally start seeing them eliminate that rear door step when I presumed it was Bustech reconfigured their interior layout ending the rear slope interior design and opting for the usual platform design you see on Volgrens & Custom bodied buses.

2828 (A B8RLE) was the first Bustech in the Newcastle fleet to not be built to STA Specs and I noticed when I rode my first one (2830 from Memory) that the step at the rear door was gone, the only step(s) was now that if you wish to sit at the rear of the bus (high floor section of the bus)

Then I eventually got to take a ride on the ZDI and learnt the hard way on the way out without warning when I almost fell over exiting the bus not knowing the step was back, so much for progress Bustech & they wonder why people complain about that bus type in particular.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Bustech is hung up on its sloping floor design, which is now standardised to take a range of engine options at the rear, all with old-fashioned central driveshaft, so a high floor at the back is mandatory. In Adelaide, AdMet insisted on a stepless centre doorway, so the Adelaide version had a conventional flat floor at the front and steps up to a high floor at the rear. With the new version of the ZDi they've come up with a dog's breakfast, retaining the sloping floor at the front, thus necessitating a step at the centre door, and then stairs up to a high floor at the rear. The doorway step has a small riser, different from the risers on the aisle stairs, thus breaking a fundamental design rule and creating a trip/fall hazard.


zdi3.jpg
zdi3.jpg (69.5 KiB) Viewed 934 times


It's a shame, because if we're promoting Australian design and Australian competence, Bustech is one of the only three companies with a local, unitary city bus product. Unfortunately the third, ARCC, also has big stairs up to a high floor at the back, though at least has a stepless doorway. That really leaves Custom Denning as the ace product from the Australian manufacturers (as well as the ace local product among all manufacturers).

I seem to recall that the reason for Bustech finding its way into Newcastle was a commitment by the previous government that Bustech could establish a factory in the Hunter, thus TfNSW placed an order for some Bustechs, allocated to KD Newcastle. That doesn't bind KD Sydney into the same choice.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by alleve »

I see. Looking at that, the old Bustech sloping floor design would be better than what they've ended up opting for in the ZDI. And of course, they've still got that terrible window line.

The Volgren Optimus, when paired with a low floor chassis, is almost equally as good as the CD Element. It's a shame we've only have 3 of them, and paired with BYDs. Bring on the BZLs
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

We need to WA Bustech and force them to go back to the drawing board or simply continue to exclude them from consideration.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:55 pm I see. Looking at that, the old Bustech sloping floor design would be better than what they've ended up opting for in the ZDI. And of course, they've still got that terrible window line.

The Volgren Optimus, when paired with a low floor chassis, is almost equally as good as the CD Element. It's a shame we've only have 3 of them, and paired with BYDs. Bring on the BZLs
Volgren is bodying BZLs already, but I guess the point is, in terms of Australian sourcing, that Volvo is an imported product. Only the body is Australian. I place the BZL a little behind the Element on a couple of points. It doesn't have the gliding doors that offer a wider passage through doorways, it hasn't eliminated a little bit of high floor at the back and it doesn't have a rear window. Otherwise, yes, it's close and definitely the second best on the Australian market.

The problem with Bustech is that TfNSW has indulged it by not setting adequate minimum design standards and the manufacturer has lazily defaulted to the lowest common design denominator.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

tonyp wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:47 pm I seem to recall that the reason for Bustech finding its way into Newcastle was a commitment by the previous government that Bustech could establish a factory in the Hunter, thus TfNSW placed an order for some Bustechs, allocated to KD Newcastle..
I wouldn't be one to speculate however with a different political party now running the show, I am curious if this local Bustech Factory has now gone out the window & what this now means for KDH (Keolis Downer Hunter) if that was a TNSW's decision for purchasing ZDI's. I'd ask if Newcastle Transport is locked into getting further ZDI's (at least at this stage as there will be more than just the 3 current ZEB's to come for NT) but then I'm asking the wrong people this big question here and could really only get speculative answers that can't give a yes or no answer as simply no one knows (or if they do is under some NDA)

NSW Labor to my knowledge never really made any announcements or commitment to continue or wanting to build electric buses here as I guess CD already has that torch but the more the merrier in this case as it would certainly showcase NSW can have vehicles built locally, local jobs (Which is always a positive outlook on any political party) and the state government isn't spending time obtaining buses built in another state leading to possible timeframe blowouts if a delay is occurred.

Given we only just had the NSW election not too far back, I am going to say there is more to come, time will certainly tell us although if we could get some straightforward answer that would be appreciated. I'm hoping going forward we'll hear more about the ZEB rollout for outer Sydney (So Central Coast, Wollongong, Newcastle etc) in the next year or two at best.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by alleve »

tonyp wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:55 pm
alleve wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:55 pm I see. Looking at that, the old Bustech sloping floor design would be better than what they've ended up opting for in the ZDI. And of course, they've still got that terrible window line.

The Volgren Optimus, when paired with a low floor chassis, is almost equally as good as the CD Element. It's a shame we've only have 3 of them, and paired with BYDs. Bring on the BZLs
Volgren is bodying BZLs already
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Ah the good old low floor debate.
Personally I see it as a trade off.

I finally got a ride on the rare release of an Element from Waverley. Rode it for a couple of km on the 324 from the city.

Noise levels were better than the BYD electrics, and ride quality felt pretty good.

Plug type rear door is great. Why isn't this in other manufacturers kit? As is the rear window, although sadly mostly covered by the NSW 40 Speed limit sign.

But I'm not sold on the fully low floor design in this particular vehicle.
- It has a rear facing seat pair over the rear wheels which isn't popular with pax, particularly post Covid
- the rear low floor section feels very narrow due to the 90° angles on the floor - and I'm not sure if standing pax will walk into this area (versus say the sloped floor which feels more inviting)
- it's a bit of an effort and requires good arm strength to hall yourself up into those rear seats

I wonder if you could make that area more inviting by widening the low floor part, or angling the wall, even adding in a mid-step to help people climb into the rear seats.

The lighting I found poor. Way too stark (ie. Cool white) and very glary (typically a sign of poor CRI, or bad diffusers).

And not sure if just this service, but there was some incessant bell ringing regularly from the front (not the stop bell as far as I could tell)
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

I observed at the Expo that BCI and ARCC had plug doors, but only single leaf. Toyota had a double leaf plug door. It's another one of those positive features that seem to escape the attention of most local manufacturers and operators.

The stepless floor is very widely understood and accepted in public transport vehicles across the world nowadays. Apart from the safety and accessibility issues, it does help distribute the crowd better (i.e. get more on board). The reversed seat is a very small price to pay for the benefits.
Last edited by tonyp on Mon May 22, 2023 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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