NSW Electric Bus Plan

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J_Busworth
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by J_Busworth »

alleve wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:33 pm So do we have any idea how many Elements are going to Kingsgrove? Fleet lists says 16 so far
Officially 79 have been ordered. There are rumours around that they may have more than 79 on the way. The 16 in fleet lists so far would likely correspond to those already delivered to the former AMD site at Leichhardt.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

In regards to the whole power grid discussion, what would exactly be the story behind Depots (Say Newcastle Transport) for example who at this stage only have 3 electric buses. What is exactly logically preventing them from running an electric bus of a weekend?

It is not like the whole grid of Newcastle is going to suddenly fall into disarray because the local transit operator decidedly wanted to run their electric bus on the weekend.

And please don't reply with the whole heap of hogwash of age old "demand / patronage" because you & I know exactly this isn't true (has nothing to do with it) and I'm not falling for it, if that is going to be the reason then my goodness is it showing how backwards we can be.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by BAMBAM »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:50 am In regards to the whole power grid discussion, what would exactly be the story behind Depots (Say Newcastle Transport) for example who at this stage only have 3 electric buses. What is exactly logically preventing them from running an electric bus of a weekend?

It is not like the whole grid of Newcastle is going to suddenly fall into disarray because the local transit operator decidedly wanted to run their electric bus on the weekend.

And please don't reply with the whole heap of hogwash of age old "demand / patronage" because you & I know exactly this isn't true (has nothing to do with it) and I'm not falling for it, if that is going to be the reason then my goodness is it showing how backwards we can be.
They all gotta start somewhere, whether they order 3 or 30 there’s has to be a start. Also those 3 buses just entered service, give them time to actually get their miles up before they are treated like any new bus. Also electric buses are still a new concept compared to diesels, so I’m sure they don’t want to have 3 buses broken down in one day. Give it 20 years time and you’ll probably be asking are there any diesels buses running on weekends.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

There was a trend in Wellington NZ in the last years of the trolleybuses where drivers, apparently free to choose which bus they take out, were opting to drive diesel buses on trolleybus services. Perhaps they preferred the driving style of a combustion-engined bus, the answer was never revealed. I think all Sydney operators would now no longer have a separate electric roster, though to what extent they might direct drivers what bus to take out I don't know.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Noel »

J_Busworth wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:46 am they are only used when Waverley runs out of other buses. It is very likely that there is genuinely only one Element out at any given time.
That's not accurate at all. They're used frequently, it solely depends on if a driver is trained on them and if the shift is shed to shed as to not effect relief.

If you pay attention, you will see a trend that they are used on the same shifts most days.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

BAMBAM wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:26 am They all gotta start somewhere, whether they order 3 or 30 there’s has to be a start. Also those 3 buses just entered service, give them time to actually get their miles up before they are treated like any new bus. Also electric buses are still a new concept compared to diesels, so I’m sure they don’t want to have 3 buses broken down in one day. Give it 20 years time and you’ll probably be asking are there any diesels buses running on weekends.
Thank you for your input however once again my post is misread and taken out of context, I have mentioned nothing in my OP about the E-Buses being "new" therefor can't run of a weekend;

I said "In regards to the power grid discussion", there was discussion in this thread recently with concerns running too many electric buses may put strain on the local power grid. What I'd like an answer for (this time not out of context please) is what is preventing an operator who definitely has lesser E-buses than Transit Systems from running their electrical buses of a weekend? being new has nothing to do with what I was asking for.

Of course logically in due time, Newcastle Transport would be running E-Buses of a weekend, however I must stress as they only have 3, what exactly is realistically & logically preventing such a smaller operator from running E-Buses of a weekend?

That's all I'd like to know.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:28 pm Of course logically in due time, Newcastle Transport would be running E-Buses of a weekend, however I must stress as they only have 3, what exactly is realistically & logically preventing such a smaller operator from running E-Buses of a weekend?
With reference to the prior post by Noel, there'd be the potential for lack of trained drivers to arise.

I expect the charge levels in the battery could be another consideration - to prolong their working lives, lithium-ion batteries are best kept in a specific band of charge (for 'devices' this is quoted as 20-80%, it likely differs for buses), which may prevent their being sent out if the shifts are too long relative to charge level of the bus. The issue may be exasperated in areas where only a small number of buses can be charged at any given time - perhaps not enough can be charged by first-thing on a Saturday?

It sounds petty, but where the buses are stowed, and how accessible they are, may also influence their use. A small subfleet of electrics, with different requirements surrounding allocation ("refuelling", range, availability of trained drivers) would likely be parked separately from the rest of the fleet, in a spot where they aren't "in the way" if they can't be sent out for some reason. If that's in a spot obstructed by other buses, those would have to leave before the electrics could go out. If those buses don't move, electrics don't go out.
ScaniaGrenda wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:28 pm Thank you for your input however once again my post is misread and taken out of context, I have mentioned nothing in my OP about the E-Buses being "new" therefor can't run of a weekend;
The point made was relevant to an extent. People I know with experience allocating buses cite an aversion to allocating new buses to weekend or night work for fear of a breakdown. Of course electrics are (theoretically) much simpler, but you can have teething issues with any new equipment.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by LB608 »

The electric bus on the Auckland wharf has been spotted in a yard at Elderslie ( Branxton)
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

LB608 wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:11 pm The electric bus on the Auckland wharf has been spotted in a yard at Elderslie ( Branxton)
Still curious as to what our little mysterious NZ / Auckland bus is, I don't head out Branxton way too often or at all but maybe... maybe if possible one could dig up some more information I could probably go look & report back

Anyway

2900 & 2902 Out & About from Newcastle Transport

Image

Excuse the image quality, mobile phone photo as I was on my work lunch break and don't carry the camera with me while working (ovb)

2900 is the one that shows up as a Hino on real time trip tracking.

Image

Sorry best photo I got of 2902 from the position I was standing in.

2902 shows up as a Mercedes O405 on real time trip tracking with a bunch of random numbers at the end of it in place of where body type would usually be displayed, only had a short ride on 2902 to Market Town (Route 24) and was pretty silent actually with the only noise coming from the AC and even that was quite but give it time I suppose.

Only thing I disliked about the ZDI is Bustech absolutely buggered up again with regards to the rear door, TonyP pointed out during the Sydney Bus Expo 2022 that the ZDI's rear doors have a short step at the exit and yes the Newcastle units are no different, almost forgot about this since the layout design was changed with Newcastles later Volvo B8's (2828 and above).

No idea on what 2901 is up too and what it's displaying as if it's even entered service yet.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

To those who wonder about how many Elements are out and about, a large contingent of eight out of the ten in the eastern suburbs this afternoon.

Busways out west has had most of theirs running for a while, mostly out of Penrith-Mt Druitt plus school runs. The last few days there's been one operating 668 Winsdor-Glossodia-East Kurrujong-Richnmond.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stonesourscotty »

Also 7027 seems confined to Schools at the moment I see it daily on or near the M4 today it was following 6033 from Cdc and 297 from Busways in a convoy heading towards Mamre Road City bound
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

They must feel like the polar opposite to a low geared 6 speed ZF thing forever stepping into another ratio, be it an actual gear change or a lock up of the converter.
With electric, just smooth linear pulling power.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

From SMH today:
Senior Labor MPs on board the “zero-emissions” campaign bus on Tuesday include Penny Sharpe and Rose Jackson, with the latter playing DJ (Harry Styles so far dominating the morning playlist).

The bus was back on the road about 11.30am, but travelling media and Labor staff were soon forced off the electric vehicle and onto a good old-fashioned gas-guzzling coach.

It seems the battery ran out of charge - let’s hope it’s no omen for the rest of the Labor campaign this week.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Perhaps they attempted to recharge it with energy derived from Labor's hot air...
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

https://www.news.com.au/technology/moto ... 88eb0141ed

The fact that it's a Chinese bus (only bodied here) doesn't help promote their policies either.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

tonyp wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:02 pm https://www.news.com.au/technology/moto ... 88eb0141ed

The fact that it's a Chinese bus (only bodied here) doesn't help promote their policies either.
Because NSW goes for cheep cheep above all else.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet took aim at Chris Minns’ zero emissions campaign bus, which ran out of battery earlier today, while addressing the media this afternoon.

“It’s no surprise to me that Labor’s bus is broken down just like their budget broke down yesterday,” Perrottet said.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

:roll: good Lord.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

I'm not really a fan of the ALP's decision to go with a Chinese bus however I still think everyone is too quick to judge the situation; Do we know why the ALP picked this bus over say a Custom Denning or Bustech ZDI? Why are we throwing shade on the ALP when we've also seen the liberal party at launch events for Chinese / Malaysian buses themselves? (Yutong & BYD Gemilang / Nextports) & another thought to the matter, I'd like to note their politicians & not bus enthuistists and while I do agree it's important to try & promote home grown & build products, what if Custom Denning wasn't able to supply a bus as their already dealing with a backlog of trying to push through orders for other operators builds in production?

Also I doubt Politicians are going to hold onto an electric bus long term especially a low entry one, from what I've possibly gathered most of the time it is rented from some private company and has all their logos and livery put over it for a brief period (usually during an election period). Once the election is over, bus goes back to private operator and has it's wrap and decals removed.

Could also be worse at the same time, Labor could've had nothing at all and someone would still be bashing them for not bringing anything to the table, guess darned if you do, darned if you don't.

So yeah I wouldn't say Labor are 100% off the hook however Liberals at the same time aren't any better especially when there's they've created transport horrors themselves.

Edit: Saw the link, it's News.com.au, a Rupert Murdoch propaganda puff piece site so no surprise their taking a swing at Labor, it's literally part of their blood.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by alleve »

boronia wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:32 pm
NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet took aim at Chris Minns’ zero emissions campaign bus, which ran out of battery earlier today, while addressing the media this afternoon.

“It’s no surprise to me that Labor’s bus is broken down just like their budget broke down yesterday,” Perrottet said.
I hope Perrottet gives whoever wrote that joke for him a raise
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Do we know why the ALP picked this bus over say a Custom Denning or Bustech ZDI?
Probably because there was little to choose from. Historically the battle bus has been hired from a private operator for the duration of the campaign. But with it having to be an electric this time, that wasn't an option. Using one from a TfNSW contracted operator wasn't an option, as state assets can't be used to campaign with. So it was down to what demonstrators were available.

While the breakdown was unfortunate, on the scale of election campaign clangers, it was low end. While some close to the industry might get all excited about the ALP hiring a Chinese bus while at the same time running a buy local agenda, come Saturday no-one will care, voters will make their decision based on bigger issues.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Seriously, I think it's no more significant than that Nexport offered NSW Labor a deal on leasing a demonstrator for a couple of weeks. They're probably the only supplier that still has spare electric demonstrators, likely left over from the Expo, so it was a fait accompli. It would have been promoted by the company to Labor as a bus "built in western Sydney", knowing that none of the party apparatchiks would have a clue about what's under the bus (like buyers of modern MGs, thinking it's the classic British car). I'm surprised that the driver supplied wasn't able to anticipate the range, or perhaps he was pushed into various diversions and too embarrassed to tell them they weren't going to make it. Still, considering where they were running, it's odd that they ran out of range. That'll reflect on Nexport who must be hoping that any identifying badging wasn't too visible.

The electric car sceptics in various media and forums are having a field day about this at the moment, since it reinforces a major point for them. A bit of an own goal for Labor and battery buses in general.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Finally some logical sense in this forum again, well pleased to actually see some rational thoughts instead of the plain tireless (throwing under the bus) because something didn't go accordingly to plan. It's a bus, it broke down & or ran out of charge and could've easily happened regardless. The reason we're discussing it is because the propaganda media jokers are out in swing and are making a rather disappointing outcry over it, as TonyP said this is rather an insignificant issue and is one that's going to be forgotten by the end of working week.

As I said above in my own post, I'm not fond of their asset but I understand there is the rational explanation behind why they have possibly ended up with what they are in possession of. They get some points at least. I think I want to add one more tiny comment that we do need to read more than beyond the headlines and be careful with who you read an article from as it's clear this one was written to suit an agenda & not offer an unbiased view then again that's how a lot of the Murdoch pressers go pretty much so I tend to really think twice before reading anything from them (If I need too otherwise I stay away).

Anyway back to the E-Bus Discussion as I don't want this thread to get derailed & get even more politician political.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:45 pm I think I want to add one more tiny comment that we do need to read more than beyond the headlines and be careful with who you read an article from as it's clear this one was written to suit an agenda & not offer an unbiased view then again that's how a lot of the Murdoch pressers go pretty much so I tend to really think twice before reading anything from them (If I need too otherwise I stay away).
All media is out to put their spin on things, in spite of any claims to the contrary by those who rabidly defend their source of news. A lot of the news we read, watch or listen uses copious amounts of opinion as filler, and to be honest, there should probably be more scrutiny about truth in journalism. I prefer to read my news online, and try to balance that out with the nation's broadsheet (or is that broadsh.... never mind) from time to time. It's a lot nicer than hearing journalists squawk their beliefs at you on the TV, or watching what are meant to be flagship broadcasts that feel more like a skit from Fast Forward :lol:

That said, I'm not convinced the likes of Rupert Murdoch (or even the PM) actively micromanage their publications or even engage in the news business on an ongoing basis. There's a very tired saying, "if it bleeds, it leads", which quite obviously means, if you use outrageous headlines, instil hatred, fear, anger, and other severe emotions into your readership (or viewership), you'll sell your product effectively.

Back to the issue of the bus with the flat battery. It's just another of the seemingly-inevitable stumbling points we see in every election campaign, be it federal or state. Although there is something very amusing about an election campaign literally running out of fuel (or in this case, electricity)!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Just for the record, this was reported widely across the media, including the SMH and ABC, so there goes the Murdoch conspiracy. Nexport must be thanking its lucky stars that its badging didn't seem to leak out, nor news of the Chinese underpinnings of the bus. The replacement was a CDC Brazilian Irizar.

Personally, I don't think this episode really reflects on battery buses per se. Considering it was on a pretty tame run around Sydney's western and SW suburbs, it looks more like somebody got their charging calculations badly wrong and maybe also it didn't make enough use of the regen. A year or so back, an Element was driven from Brisbane to Gold Coast, ran a few demos and then back to Brisbane on one charge. But then the Element is a much better bus - and Australian.
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