NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Noel
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Noel »

The TJBH Electrics definitely get out, I'm not sure if they all track as Element's though. Yesterday there were three of us in a row on Bronte Rd, Waverley (3123 on a 379, 3124 on a 350 (me) and a 3126 on a 313) following each other into BJI.

They are confined to shed to shed shifts at present, and despite all of them been delivered under State Transit, not all of them are in service yet.
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Swift
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Are they peppy or laggy to drive? Better than diesel from a driver's standpoint?
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Noel
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Noel »

Swift wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:52 pm Are they peppy or laggy to drive? Better than diesel from a driver's standpoint?
There is no lag but they're very different to drive than a diesel bus.

The biggest advantage to them is the smooth acceleration and gear changes. Once you get the hang of the braking situation, the braking is nice and smooth too.

Plus the design of the vehicle makes for great visibility and with the flat floor and rear window, as a driver you can see all of the interior easily.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Noel wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:35 pm
ScaniaGrenda wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:36 pm There was two Custom Denning elements from Transdev John Holland ex STA (3125 & 3126 ST) doing route 4 at Olypmic park earlier today
That was me in (3125). I've never been so popular with the photographers in my life :lol:
Didn't know that was actually you behind the wheel (then again we've never really crossed paths so wouldn't have 100% known). I want to apologise if I did come across as a bit how your going, I'm really pretty friendly tho last time I had a driver approach myself for photographing their buses they didn't come across too kindly to what I was doing so I tend to prepare myself for a confrontation as they come to say something, that and I'd been up since 3AM this morning to travel so my mind didn't 100% comprehend you were offering to go around for me so I could get better shots.

Hopefully no harm done.

If you want myself too as well, I can blur you in the photo or leave it as is for when I post it, let me know.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The Element or any of the electrics operating in Australia except the BZL don't have gearboxes as far as I'm aware. An electric bus will out-accelerate a diesel and the dynamic braking on an electric is better than any gearbox assisted conventional braking.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Noel »

tonyp wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:13 pmAn electric bus will out-accelerate a diesel and the dynamic braking on an electric is better than any gearbox assisted conventional braking.
I would actually challenge both of those. A good B12 would beat the Element by a mile, wouldn't be as smooth but it would beat it.

As for the braking it, the Scania's at Waverley are really smooth on braking and until you get the hang of the electric as a driver and how it responds, they win hands down.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

As we are finding with electric cars also, drivers are often taking time to get the hang of dynamic braking rather than relying so much on the foot brake as they're accustomed to doing. I remember the early rough braking by drivers on the Carbridge BYDs.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

At least on a conventional city bus, the retarder is activated before the application of any footbrake, and will increase relative to the pressure being applied to the brakes. In general terms I would expect the same to remain true of Electrics - from the driver's perspective the regenerative braking would be equivalent to the difference between a Voith, ZF or Allison gearbox in terms of the nuances of driving the bus well.

If a driver is not taught the correct techniques, does not want to know/learn them, or does not care about them, then the results will be the same whether you're in a state of the art electric, a conventional bus or a Stagecoach! (To be clear: I doubt this would be the case of any driver on the enthusiast scene).
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:25 pm At least on a conventional city bus, the retarder is activated before the application of any footbrake, and will increase relative to the pressure being applied to the brakes. In general terms I would expect the same to remain true of Electrics - from the driver's perspective the regenerative braking would be equivalent to the difference between a Voith, ZF or Allison gearbox in terms of the nuances of driving the bus well.

If a driver is not taught the correct techniques, does not want to know/learn them, or does not care about them, then the results will be the same whether you're in a state of the art electric, a conventional bus or a Stagecoach! (To be clear: I doubt this would be the case of any driver on the enthusiast scene).
Bear in mind that a driver's experience of a passenger vehicle of any type is completely different from that of a passenger. The driver subconsciously anticipates and braces for any changes in motion or direction, whereas the passenger is typically caught unawares. That's why the smooth acceleration and deceleration curves of an electric vehicle create a better passenger experience than even the best gearboxes.

There's also no way an ICE vehicle should outperform a properly specified electric vehicle where maximum torque is available from 0 km/h. However, I suspect what might be happening with battery electric vehicles is that the extra weight piled on by the batteries is compromising performance a little. This has no practical effect on acceleration in a passenger car but you can certainly feel the extra weight on the vehicle compared to an ICE car when you get to curves and corners.

With a bus, you potentially have a mass of passengers on board and, combined with the weight of the batteries, this may well take the edge off performance as Noel says. I guess we won't know to what extent in Australia as long as the legal axle load limits restrict passenger capacity. I can only suggest heading across to Europe and hopping on a trolleybus to experience unfettered electric bus performance.

The motor industry spent years whittling down weight to improve performance and economy, only to have it piled on again to the extent that, for example, iirc, a Tesla 3 has the weight of an SUV. So the next development we await is lighter-weight batteries. The Dutch Ebusco electric bus that is supposed to be coming to Australia is said to have trimmed off a lot of weight. It's all still a work in progress.
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eddy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by eddy »

tonyp wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:13 pm The Element or any of the electrics operating in Australia except the BZL don't have gearboxes as far as I'm aware. An electric bus will out-accelerate a diesel and the dynamic braking on an electric is better than any gearbox assisted conventional braking.
As SCOMO once said it is not a race ha ha

Bus routes should be designed for comfort not for speed.
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moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »


tonyp wrote: There's also no way an ICE vehicle should outperform a properly specified electric vehicle where maximum torque is available from 0 km/h.
But it's all in the specs.
Wide difference in performance between a Tesla 3 Performance and a Nissan Leaf.

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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:40 am Bear in mind that a driver's experience of a passenger vehicle of any type is completely different from that of a passenger. The driver subconsciously anticipates and braces for any changes in motion or direction, whereas the passenger is typically caught unawares.
That is very true - however my point was, there is a tremendous difference in passenger experience between a competent and incompetent driver. We drivers can brace ourselves for 'normal' effects of the gearbox, but it is impossible to be happy driving something jolting and jerking its way about an 8hr shift. In something of a paradox to what you've written, I've found I am hyper-aware of even the smallest jolts and lurches in a bus while driving it, while those same nuances go unnoticed by me as a passenger - it's probably the difference between simply sitting and watching the world go by versus making deliberate control inputs and waiting for some sort of feedback to occur.
tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:40 amThere's also no way an ICE vehicle should outperform a properly specified electric vehicle where maximum torque is available from 0 km/h. However, I suspect what might be happening with battery electric vehicles is that the extra weight piled on by the batteries is compromising performance a little. This has no practical effect on acceleration in a passenger car but you can certainly feel the extra weight on the vehicle compared to an ICE car when you get to curves and corners.
Some time ago I speculated it may only be a matter of time before the electrics were doctored to perform similarly to the buses they replace, to try and prolong the vehicle's range or reduce the temptation for drivers to careen about the place abusing the power available to them. Perhaps this has come to pass, or the buses were never that powerful to begin with (which may explain why the Element has about the best advertised range of all the e-buses presently available).
tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:40 am The motor industry spent years whittling down weight to improve performance and economy, only to have it piled on again to the extent that, for example, iirc, a Tesla 3 has the weight of an SUV.

Something we can agree on, finally :mrgreen:
Compare today's Corollas and Camrys to what was sold in the 1980s or 1990s. It seems these, and many other small cars have burgeoned in size in the intervening years. Before the advent of hybrids, these same reported vehicle's fuel economy figures had significantly deteriorated in that time too.

Strange that as fuel prices have tended upwards, and oil reserves come closer to exhaustion, that we should be building larger, less economical vehicles instead of maximising efficiency.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

With drivibg an electric bus, especially a battery one, acceleration isn't an issue, it's maximising the use of the dynamic braking (regen) in order to feed power back into the system. With a battery bus the range can be extended as much as 20 to 30% if the regen is used properly. A well trained driver won't simply floor the accelerator and run down the batteries.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:40 pm A well trained driver won't simply floor the accelerator and run down the batteries.
Good luck finding drivers that thoughtful, especially nowadays. Most are rampant abusers of equipment with a love hate relationship with their employer who's minds are only on their pay to arrive.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: With drivibg an electric bus, especially a battery one, acceleration isn't an issue, it's maximising the use of the dynamic braking (regen) in order to feed power back into the system. With a battery bus the range can be extended as much as 20 to 30% if the regen is used properly.
Same principal as with any vehicle, hard acceleration and declaration will have a notable effect on fuel consumption.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Yeah, basically revise driving habits IE: don't mash on the accelerator as you're default driving technique.
Until we adopt bus driving training standards like Germany, we'll continue to have an ocker bus driving culture here.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:36 pm Same principal as with any vehicle, hard acceleration and declaration will have a notable effect on fuel consumption.
ICE vehicles in general don't have regeneration, an analogy of which would be like putting fresh fuel back in the tank every time you back off the accelerator. Regeneration has been a feature of electric trains and trams running on overhead wires for years. The difference in a battery electric vehicle is that the regeneration goes back into replenishing the vehicle's own batteries rather than into an external power supply.

Deceleration in an ICE vehicle certainly does have an effect on fuel consumption - it sort of eliminates it!
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Fleet Lists
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Fleet Lists »

Fleet Lists wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:38 pm
GriffinRoads1 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:26 pm Didn't even know they had electrics, I'll probably have a look for myself tomorrow. I believe this would be the first time the Shire has seen an electric.
No not the first one seen in the shire.
The Inspector saw a Transdev one at Kurnell in July last year.
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19775
At about that time there was also one scheduled for a couple of weeks on route 971 weekdays at about 3pm to Cronulla and later on a 970 trip but whenever I tried to get a photo it did not operate on that day. Believed to have been from Kingsgrove depot.
I just found a photo of m/o 8188 in FlickR operating in Sylvania (looks like outside Southgate) on route 971 on 4 August 2021 - probably on one of the trips I was referring to above.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thomasbulic/51356366383/
Living in the Shire.
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Swift
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Why do they have to make a big hoo hah with that livery.
Don't miss an opportunity to praise yourself.
Just get them on the road.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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pgt
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by pgt »

Swift wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:20 pm Why do they have to make a big hoo hah with that livery.
Because they can?
That said especially in areas that haven't had many/any electric buses, it helps if the first so many stand out a bit to potentially encourage people to use it - I don't think that part of Sydney has that many electric buses to begin with.
When I lived on that route I would have liked to get a newer bus, and being electric is a bonus.

Some of us might remember the 'this is new bus X of Y' type labels... makes [some] commuters feel 'good' that they're getting something new (Brisbane did the same thing as I recall).
Victoria has "Made in Melbourne/Victoria for Melbourne/Victoria" plastered across their newly built trams and trains [well the ones built down in Dandenong] for precisely the same reason.
"It's my way or the (side of the) highway".
Might be a way to lead life, but more like the way that some people drive.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

Does the average passenger really take much notice of the colour, or the significance of it, these days?
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The wrap is noteworthy for those things on the sides that look like opium poppies. I read it as an invitation to smoke dope. Drug bus?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Regardless of whether the propaganda decals on a bus signify 1 of 500, gas, diesel, Flintstone powered, people are indifferent, so long as the service is good and the vehicle presentable.

Frankly, 50 people on an O305 would be favourable compared to 50 individual cars that must be manufactured, run and disposed of. The debacle around renewables is so bent on "more electric cars", that they lose sight of the fact that cars are THE issue here. More roads and other infrastructure need to exist to support multi-car households - those supply chains have a carbon footprint too. The shift in the power source is one thing, but I think encouraging a rethink on the modes we use is a lot more important.
Folks who excuse their driving with, "I'd catch the bus if it was electric" will also claim it is too slow, too expensive, doesn't stop at their front door, or any number of other excuses. They can only be forced out of their cars by making it too costly or inconvenient to drive.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Merc1107 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:02 pm Regardless of whether the propaganda decals on a bus signify 1 of 500, gas, diesel, Flintstone powered, people are indifferent, so long as the service is good and the vehicle presentable.
They'll soon know it's electric and thinking a self congratulatory virtue signaling livery no one takes notice of will sway their decision is naive indeed. Fare free days will. It did with me yesterday, although I kept copping the back cracking rear suspension of the Bustech jalopies and didn't get any much more compliant Customs buses!
Perth nails it again giving Bustech a miss, unless they've had a change of heart.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:17 pm
They'll soon know it's electric and thinking a self congratulatory virtue signaling livery no one takes notice of will sway their decision is naive indeed. Fare free days will. It did with me yesterday, although I kept copping the back cracking rear suspension of the Bustech jalopies and didn't get any much more compliant Customs buses!
Perth nails it again giving Bustech a miss, unless they've had a change of heart.
I don't know if later BYDs have got better, but the earlier ones I rode were noisier inside than a diesel. Few passengers would realise they were riding an electric.

PTA WA has higher minimum design standards than TfNSW. Bustech's designs don't meet the WA standards, notably for having stairs at the rear doors. In SA they forced Bustech to provide a stepless centre door in their 12 metre bus, but SA is odd in that, on the other hand, they tolerate doors with stairs in artics, so the new Bustech artic is apparently acceptable to them. Much of the problem with bus designs in Australia is down to operators and agencies, not necessarily the manufacturers who will simply provide what the operator or agency wants. Volgren and Custom Denning, most notably, can provide excellent designs, but often these have to be compromised by the chassis or other constraints insisted upon by the customer.
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