NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:05 am Make a point by all means, but what does banging on endlessly on this forum about it achieve? Two-fifths of five-eighths of nothing. That Carbridge manages to remain in business suggests that it does meet its customers needs, if it didn't revenue would dry up and it would go out of business.
Carbridge is under contract to Sydney Airport Corporation and is the sole monopoly provider of that service, the alternative being walking or taking a taxi. Its users don't have a choice if they want to use that car park. I looked at the Tripadvisor reviews. It seems that a lot of people are unhappy with the service, but it's a case of beggars can't be choosers. The general drift of advice is to allow plenty of time, because buses will pass you without stopping because they can't fit everybody on board. That is, when 60-70 passengers have squeezed into the front 2/3 of the bus, regardless of how empty the back is, the bus is considered full, a syndrome that has its counterpart in regular commuter services where we see a bus pass the stop "full", yet you can see plenty of daylight through the back half of the bus. The Carbridge experience is a testbed for our busiest commuter bus services in general.

This is a moderately crowded scene with only two standees in the back one third of the bus because few want to tackle the stairs and within the next several minutes a melee will break out as it stops at the terminals and people from the back fight their way down the stairs and through the crowd to reach their bags on the racks which are thoughtlessly located down the front of the bus, rather than distributed through it, pushing their way through people at the front trying to exit through the centre doors:

BYDint.jpg
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This level of demand calls for a layout like this, so that the true physical capacity of 80-90 passengers can be efficiently and productively achieved, with no inhibitions on passenger exchange:

public-transport-bus-jihlava-czech-republic-egaxg8.jpg
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As it turned out, Custom Denning obviously picked up the design vibes, though we haven't quite got the back door back yet. If nobody raises the issues, we'll continue down the same apathetic, counter-productive path that almost every other local bus supplier is blindly following, judging by the shameful display of poor designs at the Bus Expo. Those second-rate suppliers obviously have plenty of encouragement from status quo supporters like yourself and so we see everything that is wrong about Sydney buses for the past 70 years perpetuated because nobody could be bothered questioning it.

Thank you In Transit. Keep the light burning.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

In Transit wrote: Without ongoing discussion the forum dies.. and its never really all that far off dying in terms of the numbers posting regularly.
True, but does going around in circles discussing the same things over and over again just result in a smaller pool of contributors as people grow weary of it?
tonyp wrote: Carbridge is under contract to Sydney Airport Corporation and is the sole monopoly provider of that service, the alternative being walking or taking a taxi.
Or use public transport.
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boronia
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

What "public transport" to the car parks?
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:51 am What "public transport" to the car parks?
He means directly to the airport from elsewhere, but not always practical for all travellers and, in any case, those buses and trains are not very luggage-friendly.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by eddy »

Merc1107 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:22 pm
Linto63 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:45 pm It means the product serves the operator’s and its customers’ needs hence why repeat orders have been placed, unfathomable as some may find it.
In the context of Carbridge, is it okay for customers who have paid exorbitant amounts of money to park their car to be left behind by a full bus?
On a public bus service, is it okay for mobility-impaired passengers who need (and are entitled) a service to be left behind because the other cattle could not be paid to move all the way to the back or because there was insufficient space for prams, walking frames, wheelchairs, etc?

On multiple occasions on the job I have had to leave passengers behind because they could not be accommodated onboard due to that famous cave up the back repeatedly cited here, and/or because operations simply could not proactively deploy higher-capacity buses to save their lives. Many a time I've seen impaired passengers struggle to make their way up and down the stairs in the back of a bus, because the low-floor area where they could sit was full (sometimes with a large number of mobility-impaired passengers) ... particularly where you're dealing with intoxicated passengers, it's no fun for the operator and other passengers if someone (with poor mobility) falls over and injures themselves.

To allege the status-quo is "meeting customer's needs" is balderdash. The only thing unfathomable is why some people here continually feel the need to dismiss other's contributions as twaddle, without offering any evidence for their contrary point.
It seems like you need a Trailerbus so nobody gets left behind regardless of how many bikes, wheelchairs, mobility scooters and people want a ride.

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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Fleet Lists »

This discussion has got right away from electric buses.
So back to electric buses please.
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eddy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by eddy »

Fleet Lists wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:23 pm This discussion has got right away from electric buses.
So back to electric buses please.
Where should I put it then mate.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Fleet Lists »

My comment did not just relate to your post as the article has been getting off subject for some time. I am not ware of any article which covers your post so possibly a new subject.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Well It's simply splendid to hear the Customs Element is back in production and the existing ones have had the cobwebs brushed off them. Absolute travesty they have sat so long so new.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Talking of electric buses and the airport, there's been an Element running on the 350 today and I believe regularly in the past, so there's an alternative decent electric public transport bus there after all. At least from the eastern suburbs. Perhaps Waverley should dedicate their Elements to that service.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Apart from route 333 and those requiring SWB Scanias, Waverley don’t allocate specific bus types to specific routes and over the course of a shift buses will operate multiple routes. Elements operate from Gore Hill to the airport and everywhere in between.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:08 pm
boronia wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:51 am What "public transport" to the car parks?
He means directly to the airport from elsewhere, but not always practical for all travellers and, in any case, those buses and trains are not very luggage-friendly.
It was a reference to your comment on the Carbridge services.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by J_Busworth »

The Custom Denning Element is certainly an example that the Australian market can get something close to right when it tries to innovate.

The Bustech ZDi is an example of how badly wrong the Australian market can get something when it becomes complacent and lazy. Bustech is the poster child for complacent and lazy in the Australian bus industry, running on the same outdated and poor quality design for nearly 2 decades now.

It is beyond belief that a step at a door on a bus is at all considered acceptable for a urban route service bus. These are not MCI D45s doing long distance commuter runs in North America, the ZDi is theoretically designed for inner urban work with high turnover that should preclude the use of stairs.

I don't love the BYD/Nexport product, I don't love the inferior Yutong E12 product we get in Australia, but they are far far better than the ZDi is at this stage. I'll just hope for more Elements, BZLs with Volgren bodywork and something good from Scania/MAN.
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Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Cue the essay that is on its way about everything that is wrong with Australian buses.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

J_Busworth wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:14 pm The Custom Denning Element is certainly an example that the Australian market can get something close to right when it tries to innovate.

The Bustech ZDi is an example of how badly wrong the Australian market can get something when it becomes complacent and lazy. Bustech is the poster child for complacent and lazy in the Australian bus industry, running on the same outdated and poor quality design for nearly 2 decades now.

It is beyond belief that a step at a door on a bus is at all considered acceptable for a urban route service bus. These are not MCI D45s doing long distance commuter runs in North America, the ZDi is theoretically designed for inner urban work with high turnover that should preclude the use of stairs.

I don't love the BYD/Nexport product, I don't love the inferior Yutong E12 product we get in Australia, but they are far far better than the ZDi is at this stage. I'll just hope for more Elements, BZLs with Volgren bodywork and something good from Scania/MAN.
We have two first-rate designer/manufacturers in Custom Denning and Volgren, but it's a pity that Volgren has chosen to stay with body-building only. I'm sure they could produce an excellent integral bus if they tackled it. The indifferent state of the rest of the industry is down to the low standards set by the agencies, resulting in any man and his dog being able to have a go without much thoughtful effort. The other issue is that Chinese buses are cheaper, regardless of quality.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Would Custom Denning ever body a electric offering from one of the European bus manufacturers or are they only building and manufacturing the Element
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:31 pm Would Custom Denning ever body a electric offering from one of the European bus manufacturers or are they only building and manufacturing the Element
I don't know the answer, but maybe they'll follow the business offering if it's there, Can't think of any reason they couldn't put an Endeavour body on an electric chassis, much the same way Volgren does.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Even NZ's first locally built & designed E-Bus the Zemtec E-City didn't face any redundancy screwups (as in adding what is redundant)

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Vs the ZDi (Photo by our own TonyP)

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You know that we've messed up badly and that it is time we return to the drawing board when New Zealand whose not a very fond low floor bus market actually pulls off a successful electric bus from the ground up that is flat floor and as a bonus returns the rear window (So far we've only seen Custom Denning do this with the element).

I think the distributors & operators both play the blame game in this (as has Tonyp has pointed out numerous times). Why is the remainder of the RHD market like Singapore getting E12's that have the flat floor and rear window while the same E12 here gets the diesel layout and no rear window? So far it feels like we're just swapping out the type of resource the bus runs on and sticking with that. Embarrassing.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:41 pm Even NZ's first locally built & designed E-Bus the Zemtec E-City didn't face any redundancy screwups (as in adding what is redundant)
Thanks for the photo. Yes, I've been watching the Zemtec development for some time, but only recently has a completed bus been on show.

https://www.zemtec-ev.com/

It's definitely NZ's equivalent of the Element, sneaking relatively quickly onto the market, with a completely up to date design and not drawing on Chinese sourcing. It will be interesting to see whether it will be offered to the Australian market. The technical information so far is bare, so I don't know anything about the range or where the batteries are, considering the roof is dedicated to solar panels and HVAC. Like the Element, it shines a light on the bumbling efforts of most of our local suppliers. Also good to see another model adopting the plug door, which improves the passenger flow.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

NZ are a nation of innovators increasingly getting more global recognition. It's honestly a miracle NSW of all places have a company that's come up with a home grown product of true world standard to be proud of, or is it?
It took Englishmen to save Customs from oblivion and not coming up with this genuine product to admire and be excited about. It'd never happen with Australian owners and their attitudes.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The NSW Legislative Assembly committee report on emission-free urban public transport has been released. Although it deals with all modes, most of the meat is about buses, so I thought it best to post it here. Ferries are a generally in the "underdeveloped technology" basket and are considered an ongoing project for the future. Urban rail (the committee didn't consider trams, but the same would apply) is already emission-free in itself, the issue being more at the source of generation.

https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/ladoc ... nsport.PDF

A lot of interesting input from Custom Denning and Volgren in particular. The BusNSW submission is also very informative.

https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/ladoc ... BusNSW.pdf
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Orana aesthetic »

Good to see an update on the Zemtec - it's been very quiet for a long time. From a passenger perspective, the low floor E-City is a better design than the low aisle BZL and Element. No awkward change in height and tripping hazard to navigate when stepping out from (almost all) window seats, and a wider aisle for standees, with the opportunity for a person standing up to tuck their feet under a seat.
Image
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Custom Denning helpfully provided a two-tone floor to show how the aisle narrows when the trench begins.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The Zemtech and the Element look very similar. You'd have to put a ruler over those buses to confirm those observations. All buses have a wider aisle in the wheelchair area, so I think there's a bit of optical illusion there, but the Volvo is clearly the poorer. Having a rear window makes a striking difference, as well as being a highly desirable emergency exit.

Those elevated seats around wheel arches (which you don't get at the back of a low entry bus because of the high aisle) are an essential godsend for anybody with arthritis in the hips and knees, because it's difficult to lower and raise themselves from a low seat. They have to grab hold of something to use their arms to raise and lower themselves. With a raised seat, they can slide in and out at standing level. Arthritis is one of the significant mobility impediments in the population, mentioned in the paper I posted earlier. For them, getting rid of door and aisle stairs is a massive improvement on its own though.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Fleet Lists »

Probably the most significant info is:
The key conversions will occur at bus depots in Leichhardt, Tempe, South Granville, Kingsgrove, Menai, Taren Point, Port Botany, Willoughby, Randwick, North Sydney and Brookvale.

The NSW Government will transition the entire 8000 plus bus fleet to zero emissions technology by 2035 in Greater Sydney, Outer Metro regions by 2040 and regional NSW by 2047.
and
The funding will allow 11 existing depots across Sydney to be converted for electric charging and a new depot constructed at Macquarie Park.
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