NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Of no relevancy to NSW with trolleybuses not on anybody's radar.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:20 am Of no relevancy to NSW with trolleybuses not on anybody's radar.
Nothing to do with that - it relates to the various issues and costs, as raised by BusNSW.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Y not a hybrid Prius style?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stonesourscotty »

Does anyone know if the Electrics at Busways will see Weekend usage its a bit weird to see them all parked up on the weekend when so many Scania's are out all day??
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Stonesourscotty wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 2:17 pm Does anyone know if the Electrics at Busways will see Weekend usage its a bit weird to see them all parked up on the weekend when so many Scania's are out all day??
I glanced at Anytrip yesterday Saturday and there was one running.
Last edited by tonyp on Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Noel
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Noel »

The Transdev John Holland units appear to be back in service today. (3126) is at BJI about to commence a 380.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

At least three Transdev John Holland CD Elements out today, so appears they are back.
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Only seen a max of 2 out, so they still don't seem to be running them all for some reason.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:09 pm Only seen a max of 2 out, so they still don't seem to be running them all for some reason.
Are drivers commonly allowed to take out any bus they wish when starting a shift? Sometimes there are eccentricities like drivers preferring to drive diesels for some reason, probably based on nothing more significant than what they're accustomed to. This happened in Wellington with the trolleybuses in latter years. Maybe some drivers don''t like the different driving techniques for an electric bus. For an operator, it makes sense to use the electrics as much as possible as they're cheaper to operate and, in the case of the Element (only), a much better passenger experience. Perhaps operators should be mandating using electrics first.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:12 pm Are drivers commonly allowed to take out any bus they wish when starting a shift? Sometimes there are eccentricities like drivers preferring to drive diesels for some reason, probably based on nothing more significant than what they're accustomed to.
In my experience this depends both on the culture of the operator, the person(s) allocating the bus on a particular day, sometimes the size of the depot.

Newer buses are generally not given away "on request", because generally the newest buses are very popular, to the point that there are accusations of "favouritism" (yes, really) if one driver appears to get more new buses than others. That, and these buses may be allocated in a specific way (i.e. it may be preferable to use newer buses on particularly long routes, or have them return to depot in time for nightshift).

Personally I have found that newer vehicles aren't always what they're cracked up to be, the behaviour and relationship between the brakes and gearbox on a specific marque I have found particularly infuriating. In 2022 we should not have regressed in braking smoothness and predictability from types like the O405NH, yet apparently we have. I'd hope that electrics behave better, but, frankly, I'm not holding my breath - if the same morons are programming the brakes on electrics, the same or similar problems will likely exist.
tonyp wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:12 pm Perhaps operators should be mandating using electrics first.
Given the spiralling cost of energy at the moment (particularly power prices), I have to wonder how this impacts the economics of operators who have amassed reasonable numbers of electrics in service, especially those who don't have any appreciable solar power installations (whether solar power on the depot's roof would be but a drop in the ocean compared to the energy demands of an electric, I don't know). That would seem to be impacting on the desirability of running electrics, otherwise whatever it was that sidelined the Elements must surely be quite serious, and not resolved, for so few of TDJH's to be out operating.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Buses are allocated rather than chosen by drivers. This will be done by the fleet management software to balance out mileage and spread out maintenance requirements evenly. Some operators prioritise the use of newer more efficient models, e.g. in the former State Transit regions, Busways, Keolis Downer and Transdev John Holland by and large confine their Ansair bodied Scanias and Volvos to peak hours and they rarely appear on weekends, while Transit Systems operate theirs 7 days.

While the price of diesel and electricity have both gone up, Transit Systems may have locked in a favourable hedging deal for its diesel requirements that results in lower operating costs vs its electrics.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by J_Busworth »

tonyp wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:12 pm Perhaps operators should be mandating using electrics first.
As discussed elsewhere on this board, quite the opposite is occuring. In particular at Leichhardt, where gas buses are to be used in the first instance, followed by older diesels. You would not see a Leichhardt based electric in service on a weekend, but most of the fleet of O500 gas buses and L113 Oranas would be on the road. There is evidently a reason for this, given electric buses now make up over 20% of the fleet at Leichhardt.

I saw two Waverley Elements on the road today for driver training. It wouldn't surprise me if the return to service for these vehicles is slow given the amount of training/retraining that will need to go on.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:24 pm This will be done by the fleet management software to balance out mileage and spread out maintenance requirements evenly.
Have never seen anything like this in use myself for allocations, even in very large bus depots. It was simply a case of "Take an artic/diesel/CNG from X stow road". Attempts to balance mileage had been accomplished with large swaps between depots with large variances in average kilometres.

That's not to deny the existence of the practice elsewhere, however.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by alleve »

One has to wonder why Transit Systems is the operator who has embraced electric buses the most if they've got such an issue with using them.

Then again, one has to wonder why nobody has ordered any artics of any type recently, let alone electric ones.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by In Transit »

It varies by operator, depot and the individuals on duty. However, an omnipotent software is not often the determinant of allocations.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Fleet Lists »

alleve wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:16 pm Then again, one has to wonder why nobody has ordered any artics of any type recently, let alone electric ones.
Are there currently any artics on the list of approved buses from which operators can buy? Last time I looked the artics had been removed from the list but I no longer seem to have a link to the list,
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:10 pm Are there currently any artics on the list of approved buses from which operators can buy? Last time I looked the artics had been removed from the list but I no longer seem to have a link to the list,
Still in the sin bin, except as bespoke orders (so far only Nowra Coaches).

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/operat ... ment-panel

The manufacturers are still waiting to see which way TfNSW will go, but high-capacity buses are included in the scope of electric bus review. At this rate we'll probably see one somewhere like Victoria first.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

List here While there was an announcement 5 or so years ago that no more artics would be purchased, it will probably be reviewed when the first Volvo B12LEAs become due for replacement at the end of the decade.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Might be of particular interest for Tonyp since I believe he's from the Wollongong area

HDRIVE ANNOUNCES FIRST AUSTRALIAN HYDROGEN DOUBLE-DECKER CITY BUS TRIAL DAY

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... -trial-day
HDrive is inviting the industry to experience Australasia’s first hydrogen double-decker city bus

HDrive announces first Australian hydrogen double-decker city bus trial day
The HDrive bus is on loan from Hong Kong
Hydrogen heavy vehicle manufacturer HDrive is inviting all in the industry to climb aboard and experience Australasia’s first hydrogen double-decker city bus.

The Launch Day event for the bus will be held on November 29 at Shellharbour Regional Airport in New South Wales, with the airport supporting the event.

The bus is exclusively on loan from Hong Kong Public Transport for one day only, allowing HDrive to unveil Australia’s transport future.

A shuttle bus will run from the regional airport parking to the event at gate 10 of the airport.

HDrive says it will be providing a technical and operational overview of the hydrogen city bus, while also giving attendees the opportunity to ride aboard Australia’s first zero-emissions mass transit vehicle.

All RSVPs must be provided by November 22 to ensure appropriate safety and amenity provisions are in place, with the event running from 11AM to 3PM.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

A bit more background on the Toyota electric bus displayed at the Bus Expo, a more elegantly executed design than the clumsy Foton. It will be trialled in Melbourne.

https://www.busnews.com.au/product-news ... ta-at-expo
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by HunterLine5 »

I see from the NSW FLEET LISTS, KEOLIS DOWNER, NEWCASTLE FLEET, have finally added that Bustech Zdi 2900 that’s been in the “to be delivered “ list for month’s and months.
Being a 1 off, by the looks of it, the feedback should be interesting to say the least.

Anyone out there got a picture of this beast in service please?.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Beasts are noisy as a rule. More like gentle giant.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

I'll be keeping an eye out for it Hunterline5 but I haven't seen it yet and not sure if ZDI's are even marked as electric buses on real time trip trackers because if it's out this very moment then it's not showing, may also be using a recycled tracker and showing up as an older bus type (as is common).

I work full time also so I may also miss it and may take me a couple of weeks before i eventually come across it.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by 1whoknows »

It may not enter revenue service for a while as driver training and familiarisation will be required first. There are at least two more on the way as well.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:48 pm I work full time also so I may also miss it and may take me a couple of weeks before i eventually come across it.
I wouldn't get too excited. It's a toss up with the BYD for ranking as the internally worst-designed electric bus on display at the Bus Expo (and there were a lot of pretty bad ones there). In terms of quality of ride, I guess you'll find that the electrics in general are very similar (bumpy) low-floor ride, with, in my experience, the BYD having a high level of internal noise for an electric. It would, however, be interesting to hear opinions on the Bustech.

What we're seeing with electric buses in Australia is a reflection of the low design standards and expectations set for our market. If the market, via standards set by agencies and operators, doesn't have a high bar, then the suppliers will settle for minimum standard rather than strive for best practice. It's a bit of a free-for-all with electric buses in that anybody, figuratively speaking, can cobble one together, since they're no longer tied to major diesel manufacturers and their chassis. With an electric bus, it's more a matter of rounding up the components such as electric motor, axles, battery packs etc from OEMs and putting it all together with your own chassis and body and the relevant expertise. In the absence of local standards, this has led to some pretty ordinary outcomes, like centrally-mounted drivetrains (e.g. ARCC and Bustech), which haven't been used virtually since the 1990s in electric buses in Europe. A modern, offset drivetrain of course enables a low floor.

This means that most of what we saw at the Expo is below European standards - and even below the standards of other RHD jurisdictions such as Singapore and Japan, as we saw in the Toyota bus displayed there. There were five legitimately modern (low floor) electric bus designs at the Expo - the Custom Denning Element, the Toyota, the Volvo BZL and two E bus chassis soon to enter our market, Scania and MAN. (Scania is going first to Adelaide I understand, with either a Volgren or Bustech body.) The rest, almost all Chinese, are obsolescent designs - but doubtless cheaper, which, in the absence of best practice standards, will be the inevitable default.

It's disappointing that the transit agencies in Australia in general don't strive for best practice standards, but, to some extent, I blame the HRC for not better-educating agencies and suppliers on best practice, as opposed to minimum standards as laid out in the DDA regs. Accessibility doesn't stop at the front door, either in a building or a vehicle. There's a common misconception that disability is "just about wheelchairs", when in fact some 20% or so of the population has mobility issues of some type, e.g.:

https://www.and.org.au/resources/disability-statistics/
(Australia)

https://neurobalancecenter.org/wp-conte ... 21-WEB.pdf
(USA)

Just as within buildings and public spaces, it's essential that public transit vehicles maximise the internal barrier-free space, the smaller the vehicle (e.g. 12 metre bus), the more important it is to maximise that stepless space. Apart from the issue of physical mobility impairment, this also has benefits for the general functionality of the vehicle through passenger distribution and flow. I can see from the fact that two-thirds of the electric platforms displayed at the Expo had internal stairs that, like TfNSW's disastrous policy of letting manufacturers choose the (wrong) trams, this manufacturer-led approach is going to quickly degenerate towards the lowest common denominator, where price, not best practice, is going to be the determinant.
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