NSW Electric Bus Plan

[Swift]

That's good news, but I read they were pulled off the road due to having the same batteries as the fire in Paris.

There was a component problem or concern of some sought, hence Busways and Transdev John Holland grounded their fleets for some months.

Over cautious??

[Fleet Lists]

Not necessarily.

[Linto63]

If a manufacturer or component supplier, or transport agency recommends withdrawal, then operators have no choice. To ignore could have far reaching consequences, such as voiding their insurance.

[Swift]

Why can't this afflict BYD instead!!
I'm just so stoked that Customs came up with their own genuinely low floor electronic bus!! It's such a shame this has spoiled the elation.
I'm just so desperate for Australia to hold onto successful manufacture and make this a worldwide hit.
Unfortunately there's a down side to local successes like this. Falling into foreign hands!

[Linto63]

Falling into foreign hands!

That ship has already sailed.

[tonyp]

The Dutch Ebusco 2.2 was displayed at the Sydney Bus Expo. I posted photos in the photo thread. As usual, for more perceptive information we have to turn to European sources for some background on the bus. From the Hungarian bus portal Magyarbusz, we have this - with Google translation unedited:

https://magyarbusz.info/2022/09/30/megk ... traliaban/

Ebusco 2.2 is now available in Australia
Author: Patthy Gellért Date: September 30, 2022 Category: News, Outlook
Print Email

Ebusco is serious about its previously announced global expansion: the Dutch bus manufacturer announced on September 30, at an official presentation held in front of the Park Hyatt Hotel in Melbourne, that it has started operations in Australia as well. The bold offensive will be launched with the Ebusco 2.2 model, which has already been tested many times in Europe. The company reported on the press event itself - at which Greg McGarvie, president of the Electric Mobility Manufacturers of Australia (EMMA) association, which brings together manufacturers interested in Australian e-mobility, spoke - in a relatively short statement.

In accordance with Australian traffic regulations, the Ebusco 2.2 electric bus, for the first time in the history of right-hand drive, can travel up to 450 kilometers with a single charge in favorable weather conditions. To gain the sympathy of the traveling public, USB connectors were added to each seat, but the manufacturer did not reveal more about the equipment of the demo bus.

Ebusco was not more forthcoming about the technical details of the vehicle either, but according to the data available on the manufacturer's newly launched Australian website, the 12,500 mm solo version of the Australian edition of the 2.2 model will be available with a low-entry two-door body or a full-length low-floor three-door body, the width of which will depend on local regulations. adjusted only 2490 mm. The total capacity of the buses, regardless of the door formula, is 61 people, calculated according to Australian ADR regulations. The capacity of the built-in lithium-iron phosphate (LFP) traction battery pack can be 350-500 kWh, depending on the model, which gives a range of 350-450 kilometers, only plug-in charging is possible. The solo version weighs 12,850 kg ready to go, without passenger load (it's true, they don't mention which battery cap this means), which, according to Ebusco, is "800 kg less than the majority of electric buses". Browsing the factory website, it can be concluded that an 18-meter articulated version of the type will also be produced in a right-hand drive version. It is interesting that although the Ebusco 2.2 series is considered to be an aluminum frame type, the Australian website mentions high-strength stainless steel as the body material.

Peter Bijvelds, the now global CEO of Ebusco, who was personally present at the presentation, reminded about the entry into the Australian market that 10 years after the launch of the Ebusco brand, more than 400 electric buses are already in use in Europe, and together, more than 60 million kilometers, and during that time, according to their estimates, they saved their immediate environment from around 55 million kg of carbon dioxide. Simon Pearce, director of Ebusco's Australian division, said that behind the scenes, a small team had been working continuously for the past three years to make today's launch in the land of kangaroos possible, which is a huge milestone for the company. Based on Ebusco's announcement, local production of right-hand drive types is also conceivable later.

Note that this is not the lightweight model Ebusco 3.0 which may or may not come to Australia later, it's much the same tare weight as other electric buses on the market here, about 12.5 tonne, which dictates a passenger capacity in the low 60s on the east coast. It seems also that these Ebusco models are only low entry, two door models in RHD, in contrast with the LHD model which is three door low floor.

[bussie]

From my understanding, Ebusco and BCI have their electric buses produced by a Chinese firm called Wisdom Motor. So much for Ebusco touting themselves as European.

http://www.wisdommotor.com/CompanyProfile

[1whoknows]

The same mob had their branding on the plate of the cute little H Drive bus and prison van that were at the bus show.

[tonyp]

From my understanding, Ebusco and BCI have their electric buses produced by a Chinese firm called Wisdom Motor. So much for Ebusco touting themselves as European.

http://www.wisdommotor.com/CompanyProfile

Well they are a European company and it's a European design, but, yes, there are fringe dwellers in the industry who do their manufacture in China. I already know about BCI. It's not clear whether Ebusco only manufactures its RHD in China or all its buses. I'll do some checking.

[tonyp]

From my understanding, Ebusco and BCI have their electric buses produced by a Chinese firm called Wisdom Motor. So much for Ebusco touting themselves as European.

http://www.wisdommotor.com/CompanyProfile

Here's your answer. The Ebusco 3.0 is made in Holland, the 2.2 in China.

https://www.ebusco.com/au/production/

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

I note that the Scania Volgren single door buses at Busways have the Emergency exit window in the same spot the emergency exit door is on a UK spec bus post 2008. Wonder if they had some British design input or if the Volgren design was a rip off of some uk/ni design features?

If you're talking about Busways Western Sydney's Scania Volgrens with only front doors, then those were actually ordered by Westbus.
Considering the CR228L is essentially an old Wrightbus with new headlights, interior and rear, it is entirely possible that the CR228L (and indeed the Optimus) 'borrowed' multiple body design features from the UK.

Checking real time trip tracking, there's been no BYD Gemilangs out all day from Transit Systems

Transit Systems ordered its BYD Gemilangs to push out the aging Scania L113CRL Ansair Orana vehicles. However, drivers have been ditching the infamous CNG buses at Leichardt in favour of the electric buses. So Transit Systems has been locking them up on weekends when less buses are required so their CNG buses accumulate an acceptable amount of mileage before they are sent to scrap.

[Swift]

Transit Systems ordered its BYD Gemilangs to push out the aging Scania L113CRL Ansair Orana vehicles. However, drivers have been ditching the infamous CNG buses at Leichardt in favour of the electric buses. So Transit Systems has been locking them up on weekends when less buses are required so their CNG buses accumulate an acceptable amount of mileage before they are sent to scrap.

Great for accessibility. Another win for progressive private enterprise running the show.

And why do we need to adopt old pommy designs for our bus bodies?

[J_Busworth]

Leichhardt on a weekend is an interesting case study. They send out their Scania L113CRL Oranas and Mercedes-Benz OC500LE CNG CB60s, whilst their newer electric BYD and Yutongs and even many of the newer diesel powered Gemilangs sit parked up in the yard. This has been ongoing for a while now

We don't have many other examples of depots with significant electric bus presence, but it will be interesting to see if this is a trend that continues elsewhere.

[Merc1107]

Are they perhaps trying to save wear on batteries (either by not using at all or doing a very slow charge?)?

[tonyp]

The operating costs of an electric bus are much lower, so it doesn't make sense to withhold them from service. Do they have enough drivers trained for them available in weekends? Perhaps they're one of those eccentric operators one sees occasionally over the years that send out their oldest buses while carefully preserving their new buses in the depot as much as possible?

[Merc1107]

Perhaps they're one of those eccentric operators one sees occasionally over the years that send out their oldest buses while carefully preserving their new buses in the depot as much as possible?

This seemed to be the modus operandi of Buslink (CDC) in Darwin, with their newest buses usually out for the peaks and the oldest slugging it out the rest of the week.

While the oldest had developed the fine "tropical musk" buses up there get (we will not go into other contributing factors!), they were as immaculate as a new bus.

It will be interesting to see if their deployment of the promised hybrids will follow this pattern or not.

[Jurassic_Joke]

Was out late last night in the Inner West. Got the 470 home. A quick check on NextThere showed my upcoming bus was being operated with an ex-STA Merc. 0500LE CNG.

Not impressed, I thought “wait what, Transit Systems has all these new diesel and electric buses, and they still send out this old clunker pile of junk that I thought is supposed to be retired by now??”. The bus rocks up and surprise surprise - its in fact one of Transit Systems new Yutongs and I had a very pleasant trip home in this splinter-new bus that is also much quieter than the BYD Gemilang.

Watch out on the apps - seems like the data entry for bus models isn’t completely accurate.

[Swift]

.

Not impressed, I thought “wait what, Transit Systems has all these new diesel and electric buses, and they still send out this old clunker pile of junk that I thought is supposed to be retired by now??”. The bus rocks up and surprise surprise - its in fact one of Transit Systems new Yutongs and I had a very pleasant trip home in this splinter-new bus that is also much quieter than the BYD Gemilang.

Watch out on the apps - seems like the data entry for bus models isn’t completely accurate.

I hope it isn't the reverse on the weekend!

STA generally put out their newest available equipment on the weekends and used their old gear as their supposed to : to make up the numbers when needed.

[Linto63]

There showed my upcoming bus was being operated with an ex-STA Merc. 0500LE CNG.

Not impressed, I thought “wait what, Transit Systems has all these new diesel and electric buses, and they still send out this old clunker pile of junk that I thought is supposed to be retired by now??”.

0500LE CNGs date from 2008, so will be with us for another decade unless their tanks expire and result in them being withdrawn earlier. it was the O405NHs that have all been withdrawn, but still show up on apps courtesy of transponders being recycled.

[Jurassic_Joke]

There showed my upcoming bus was being operated with an ex-STA Merc. 0500LE CNG.

Not impressed, I thought “wait what, Transit Systems has all these new diesel and electric buses, and they still send out this old clunker pile of junk that I thought is supposed to be retired by now??”.

0500LE CNGs date from 2008, so will be with us for another decade unless their tanks expire and result in them being withdrawn earlier. it was the O405NHs that have all been withdrawn, but still show up on apps courtesy of transponders being recycled.

Yeah but I thought, unless I’m mistaken; wasn’t CNG being prematurely phased out, which in turn would also lead to premature retirement of the CNG buses? I know Waverley doesn’t have any more CNG buses. I just have a fuzzy memory of reading a document that said CNG buses would all be withdrawn by early 2020’s. Or am I thinking of something else.

0405NH’s had character at least. The 0500LE’s don’t, have a jerky ride, bad legroom, stiff seats, small windows, really wouldn’t mind seeing these go early

[Linto63]

The O405NHs were retired after about 20 years as their tanks reached their expiry dates, can't recall anything having being reported yet about the O500LEs which are about 14 years old. Waverley lost its last CNG buses in 2021, the life expired Scania L113s were withdrawn and the O500LEs exchanged for diesels with Port Botany to allow the equipment to be removed from the depot in the lead up to electrics being introduced.

[Swift]

Makes me glad I took all the sound recordings I did. The 0405NH were awfully agricultural but some had very melodic ZF transmission notes transmit through the bus especially second gear into third.
The 0500LEs just sounded off and were hopeless up hills, but more interesting than the 0500 diesels, but I won't miss them. It seems since losing their planetary hubs and using hypoid axles, that's when Mercs lost the plot and now MAN are the only German buses that sounds interesting in any way.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

For CNG buses, they do not require any major checks until they reach 15 then the tanks need to be checked and given the all clear for another 5 years of operation, which continues until the buses are 30 (as we saw with the Scania L113CRB Ansair Oranas).
Now that STA is privatised, the operators themselves have the choice of scrapping them early and moving to electric or keeping them for as long as possible. Most likely TSA is going for the former and trying to use them as much as possible in their final months (and for some years) in service like they did for the O405NH Citaros, which were used as much as possible until their final days.

0405NH’s had character at least. The 0500LE’s don’t, have a jerky ride, bad legroom, stiff seats, small windows, really wouldn’t mind seeing these go early

I think the O500LE diesels are more interesting as the ZF doesn't sound as forced. The diesels also race up hills.

Watch out on the apps - seems like the data entry for bus models isn’t completely accurate.

Agreed. Most likely this had the tracker from a Gas Merc that recently got scrapped.
Same issue happened when TSA retired their Citaros, you would find them on the 470... but they were actually BYD D9RAs.
Just last week I found a 'Mercedes O405NH Custom Coaches Citaro' with Transdev South on Anytrip... no clue what that was though.

[Merc1107]

For CNG buses, they do not require any major checks until they reach 15 then the tanks need to be checked and given the all clear for another 5 years of operation, which continues until the buses are 30 (as we saw with the Scania L113CRB Ansair Oranas).

That would depend on the expiry date of the tanks - perhaps the L113s received new tanks at some point (i.e. perhaps they were 20yr expiry), or were tanks with a 30yr expiry and never needed replacement.

[tonyp]

We see a lot of marketing blah nowadays about electric buses, much of it being driven by marketing coming out of China which is accepted uncritically by many of the newbies to electrification in the industry. We don't see much comparative study that should be mandatory when approaching new technology. This work is normally done in Europe which, of course, has had well over a century of experience with electric transit, but that is typically ignored outside Europe as being "outdated", with the trolley bus being a particular laughing stock among the ignorant.

We do have a basic picture that the WOL cost of a battery electric bus is similar to that of a diesel bus, but it's not so publicised that a battery electric bus costs a lot more upfront (though much cheaper to maintain), has a restricted passenger capacity because of its weight, has significant downtime and needs a battery bank renewal at eye-watering cost around half-life of the bus, thus also shortening the life of the bus because it's uneconomic to replace the batteries a second time late in the life of the bus.

We rarely see this quantified, because it doesn't suit the marketing agenda of the battery-electric bus proponents, but recently a Czech manufacturer of electric drive equipment, Cegelec, has released a short paper comparing the relative costs of battery-electric (overnight charge), battery-electric (opportunity charge) and trolley (in-motion charge) buses.

https://www.cegelec.cz/wp-content/uploa ... ity-EN.pdf

Particularly interesting is the bar chart which contains the sort of information that the authorities in Wellington and Brisbane, for example, should have properly considered before they made the decisions they did. If the process had been followed properly, Wellington should still have trolleybuses and Brisbane should have built a trolleybus system for the fixed routes traversed by its double articulated buses. (The Hess bus model that they're buying actually has a trolleybus version as well.)

Of course, it's difficult to convince a city to build a system with overhead wires from scratch, but some cities like Prague and Berlin are because they have a power supply already in place from their tram systems and, with the modern dynamic charging trolleybus, the whole of a route doesn't need to be wired any longer.

Some of these issues have been identified here by the private sector, through BusNSW, which has addressed two significant issues for battery-electric buses operated in Australia.

https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/ladoc ... BusNSW.pdf

1. The standard operating life of a battery-electric bus needs to be reduced to 18 years because of the cost of battery replacements (which represent about 20-30% of the cost of the bus, as shown also in the chart in the Cegelec paper). There will be one half-life replacement, but the cost of a second replacement close to full-life (presently 25 years) is uneconomic. (This is barely an issue for a modern in-motion charging trolleybus.)

2. The loss of passenger capacity in a battery-electric bus is substantial (typically some 20 passengers) due to weight and the need to comply with axle load standards. Hence there's a need for agreement on some sort of exemption to the national heavy vehicle standards to enable battery-electric buses to carry similar loads to diesel buses (or to the lighter trolleybuses for that matter). This loss of capacity is quite a serious problem, economically, because it means that additional buses (and drivers) have to be acquired to move the same number of passengers as previously.

My main reason for posting all of this information is that the issues are not as clear cut or black and white as is often made out. There are no clear answers as to which option is better - all have pluses and minuses, though the dynamic-charging trolleybus does have the lead on several counts, but may not be acceptable to many jurisdictions. The only thing that's certain is that the diesel city bus is down and out on environmental grounds. I won't comment on fuel cell buses because there is too much that is unresolved at this stage.

Now that the new trolleybus system in Prague is approaching entry into public service for its first line, it's interesting to see some of the analysis behind the choice of technology, now that a decade has passed, during which trolley and battery electric systems have been able to be compared in service alongside each other - which is exactly what many European operators have been busy doing for the past decade.

As the Cegelec paper cited in my previous post quoted above demonstrates, battery-electric buses have a similar WOL (capex plus opex) cost to diesel buses, but trolleybuses are considerably cheaper than either, even including the cost of building the power supply infrastructure. They are also better on hills as they don't have to carry that extra battery weight around and, of course, they have considerably higher passenger capacity in jurisdictions with severe axle load regulations. These advantages address both points of BusNSW's concern that lifespan would have to be shortened because of the cost of cyclical battery replacements and that passenger capacity has to be reduced because of axle load.

The modern trolleybus carries a small battery pack in order to run off wire, typically up to about 15 km. (Trolleypoles are remotely raised and lowered from the driver's seat within the dwell time at a bus stop.) The batteries are recharged in motion while running on wire, so there's no need to stop for opportunity or overnight charging, particularly significant for high capacity buses like artics and deckers, and they don't have the weight of a full set on a battery bus. These are the considerations that convinced Berlin and Prague to choose an in-motion charging trolleybus system. Prague specifically was unhappy with the performance of battery-electric buses on hills, but both cities are likely to transition to those buses on routes where 12 metre rigids are sufficient. Artics, however, will be trolleybuses. This also fits with the general experience in the battery-electric world that it's not going to be possible to produce a high-capacity bus (artic or decker) that can run all day only on an overnight charge. Their mass is just too great for the battery capacity.

It seems that the Berlin and Prague plans are of similar scale - about 15 routes and about 150 route km, big projects that are mostly replacing existing high-demand services run by diesels. In both cities, these trolleybus services will be operated by articulated or bi-articulated buses, depending on the route. If you're wondering about the size of the buses, UITP's last international bus survey has found that Austria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Slovakia are the countries that average the most passenger journeys per bus in the world. This is why you see a lot of 3 to 4 door rigids and 4 to 5 door artics there! For some of these countries, the artic is rapidly becoming the minimum size of city bus, in some case representing more than half the fleet. The second article has additional references.

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.co ... lleybuses/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Prague

This is the ultimate Prague trolleybus network, basically suburban feeders to metro and tram or cross-regional routes.

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-cgi/ ... g.4010763/

I also checked how many cities around the world have still gone for a new trolley system rather than battery buses in the last ten years when both have existed side by side to compare and, apart from the above, I can find about four - Baoding in China, Malatya and Sanliurfa in Turkey and Marrakesh in Morocco. Constantine in Algeria is supposed to have started a system but not finished yet. Marrakesh is uncannily similar in concept to the Brisbane "Metro", a BRT line, about 8 km long (to be extended) with about 3 km wired on which the batteries charge for the other 5 km. Unlike Brisbane, it doesn't need to stop to charge at each terminus and would likely cost less to run - a smart choice. The amount of wire-free running for a battery trolleybus would depend on the terrain. In Prague, which has some stiff hills, the route percentages on wire mostly range from 50% to 80 %. Berlin is aiming for 50% to 65%. If routes are fairly flat, a lower percentage of OHW will be required.

These are the initial fleet of Prague buses. 20 Skoda/Solaris bi-artics:



and 15 Cegelec/SOR artics:



Below is (per current contract) the standard 12 metre battery bus to replace 12 metre diesel buses in Prague, a Skoda/Temsa E-City. It has a pantograph as well as plug in charger because they've tried to reduce the weight of the batteries, so the pantograph is there for opportunity charging while running, if necessary. Nevertheless you can see the affect of weight, with the passenger capacity of 100 for the diesel equivalent being reduced to 80 for this battery version. Not as bad, I guess, as an Element being lopped from 80 to 60, but still unwelcome for European operators. A trolleybus, on the other hand, can basically keep the same capacity as a diesel.

https://www.dpp.cz/en/company/news-and- ... -of-prague

As I've said, the whole subject is not black and white. The battery bus will make a big impact, but there are good reasons why it won't wipe alternatives off the field. There are sacrifices - including cost.