NSW Electric Bus Plan

[ScaniaGrenda]

Well as you can see from the ZDi prototype in Adeliade, I'm left to speculate that Bustech couldn't get the full flat floor solution to work out perfectly and ditched it and went back to a low entry design, disappointing yes given we can see Custom Denning has faced no trouble pulling it off and the end result being highly impressive for our market but I'm starting to think Bustech was more so focused on wanting to pull off an electric city bus compared to focusing on how accessible it can be at the end of the day.

I was just hoping to see them pull off that render we saw when they relaunched their website with a few obvious changes to make it suitable although that seems to have been nothing more than a quick mockup (and was never confirmed to be anything more).



I know Tony is really really focused on seeing E-Buses as accessible as possible, I on the other hand like to say this is generation one of the ZDi, there's no reason (although may be unlikely) why Bustech can't experiment with a full flat floor design again the future as technology improves and we can shuffle bits of various equipment & parts around so we can make the floor of the bus as flat as possible. I think I've read somewhere that while the Ebusco we saw at the expo is low entry, their successor should be full flat floor (I think, don't quote me on that).

As these are the first electric buses for the Hunter region, I am keen to try them when they finally make their way onto the road as until then I'm left with Sydney being the closest to travel to get the full electric bus experience. Other players eventually like Port Stephens and CDC + Rover should follow suit in due time as well.

[tonyp]

From the protracted timescales (ZDi was first conceived in about 2016 iirc), it seems clear that Bustech struggles to design a bus and, when they do, they come up with some cockeyed ideas, like stairs at the centre doorway. There was some unspecified problem with the first ZDi that was not disclosed, but I'm sure that it was not to do with the low floor, though they did have a problem with the window-line in their Adelaide buses in general in that some seated passengers could not see out the window - an obvious focus on having a unique external style at the cost of internal functionality. Even worse, in a telling demonstration of the problem of poor agency standards in Australia, TfNSW indulged Bustech by lowering their own standard in order to allow stairs at the centre door. A good agency should challenge manufacturers to attain a higher bar, not to lower standards in order to accommodate less capable manufacturers. With both electric buses and trams, TfNSW has a knack of stuffing up any god-sent opportunity to start with a clean sheet.

This is not confined to Bustech either. The low floor Yutong E12, sold around the world as such, has been converted to a low entry bus in the Australian market. I believe that similar builds of low-entry bodies on low floor MAN diesel chassis has occurred in the past. It wouldn't surprise me if we see one day somebody putting a low-entry body on the Volvo, Scania or MAN low-floor electric chassis. That's what we'll get in the absence of decent agency or operator standards. All of this points towards the Custom Denning Element as the guaranteed outstanding electric bus on the local market. Customers in regions that get this bus will be the lucky ones. My sympathies to Newcastle. With Bustech, you not only get some whopping stairs to the high floor, but there's a stair in the centre doorway small enough to be an unseen trip hazard.

zdi3.jpg (69.5 KiB) Viewed 1064 times

[ScaniaGrenda]

This is not confined to Bustech either. The low floor Yutong E12, sold around the world as such, has been converted to a low entry bus in the Australian market. I believe that similar builds of low-entry bodies on low floor MAN diesel chassis has occurred in the past. It wouldn't surprise me if we see one day somebody putting a low-entry body on the Volvo, Scania or MAN low-floor electric chassis. That's what we'll get in the absence of decent agency or operator standards. All of this points towards the Custom Denning Element as the guaranteed outstanding electric bus on the local market. Customers in regions that get this bus will be the lucky ones.

When you posted the first lot of photos from the Expo (Something I still wish I could've attended), I didn't pickup that the pesky step at the rear door had returned. I'd finally became use to accepting that the Volvo B8RLE's Bustechs at Newcastle Transport 2828 and above had moved to such a flat floor design up until you meet the rear gangway with it's reconfigured high-floor design that I figured this would flow onto the ZDi, supposedly not as we're seeing, others may not see the big concern for it, I am not sure why it needs to exist in the first place besides for the whole reason Bustech screwed up when it had to settle on it's Low entry instead of flat floor chassis.

My sympathies to Newcastle. With Bustech, you not only get some whopping stairs to the high floor, but there's a stair in the centre doorway small enough to be an unseen trip hazard.

Not forever through, as I mentioned in my Original post we've still got CDC Hunter Valley Buses (Who plans to rebrand fully to CDC NSW at some point) who have stated they will be going with the Volvo BZL and optimus bodywork and I suspect it will likely follow the PTA's example of having that single small step at the rear but I otherwise can't see why it can't be eliminated. The other two major operators are big question marks since I have no idea what their likely to settle on, I reported ages and ages ago now Port Stephens Coaches trialed the same Yutong E12 that Busways had up North (Coffs Harbor I think?) however at this present time no purchases of electric buses have been made by them. Rover Coaches is anybodies guess and as I like to comment, only time will tell.

But yes for the meanwhile, Newcastle Transport will be the first operator in the Hunter region to finally introduce Electric buses, possibly not the greatest but being Australian built & designed I'm for it.

[Campbelltown busboy]

The Australian market goes for buses for horizontal underfloor running gear placement whitch might the reason for the raised floor after the centre door that means more seats where a bus with a full flat floor would require a box for vertical running gear that wold take a couple of seats from the rear of the bus

[tonyp]

The Australian market goes for buses for horizontal underfloor running gear placement whitch might the reason for the raised floor after the centre door that means more seats where a bus with a full flat floor would require a box for vertical running gear that wold take a couple of seats from the rear of the bus

You're quite correct. I'm aware that this has been the situation with diesels, but it's not necessary for electrics where a low-entry format is basically a symptom of lazy design and there is no loss of seats with low floor. The Toyota on display at the Expo demonstrates that even having a fuel cell does not prevent a low floor. Speaking of which, the contrast there is the Foton fuel cell bus with its massive stairs and me banging my head on the ceiling at the back. It's amusing to watch Paul Aldridge at Australian Bus & Coach reviewing this compared to his review for the Element. Of course, with advertising revenue to consider, you can't say anything detrimental about any manufacturer. See how he reacts to the floor and head clearance on the Element (from 1:40 min):

https://www.busnews.com.au/bus-reviews/ ... ng-element

compared to the same in the Foton (from 5:10 min):

https://www.busnews.com.au/bus-reviews/ ... bus-review

Low floor in the Foton is a rubbery "all the way in" (cue shot looking at aisle stairs halfway down) and head height is "great" (as he stands with his head pressed against the ceiling). No wonder these manufacturers get a free pass to put in the least effort possible. No wonder I use the Hungarian bus portal "Magyarbusz" if I want some real insight into new bus models.

[Campbelltown busboy]

Too all those that want full flat floor electric buses don't forget Australia was about half a decade behind Europe when it comes to the introduction of low entry buses if someone could correct me on the theory that low entry buses were operating in Europe as early as the late 1980s

[tonyp]

Too all those that want full flat floor electric buses don't forget Australia was about half a decade behind Europe when it comes to the introduction of low entry buses if someone could correct me on the theory that low entry buses were operating in Europe as early as the late 1980s

The development of low floor and low entry buses and trams was pretty simultaneous during the late 1980s and 1990s, indeed it could almost be said that the low entry bus evolved from the low floor bus, an early significant example being the Mercedes 0405N, a low floor introduced in 1989. This was bastardised for Australia by replacing the back half with the back of the high floor 0405 Mk2, turning it into a low entry bus, the 0405NH. Other low floor models appeared in Europe in the 1990s, so Australia is more like a quarter century behind.

The first low entry in Australia, a Scania in Tasmania, appeared in 1992, so that was pretty much the same time as low entrys appeared in Europe, but, whereas Europe quickly progressed to low floors (and now Singapore and Japan are moving that direction), Australia has remained stuck with the low entry bus, the only significant examples of low floors to date being the Renault/Irisbus, the Scania N series and the Custom Denning Element.

Trams moved to low floor early in the piece, the only examples of low entrys nowadays being mostly on narrow gauge trams where there's not enough space between the wheels to run an aisle trench through. There are a lot of low entry (with low floor from bogie to bogie) commuter trains in Europe now, matching the level of their low platforms. Amid all the talk here of European double deck trains as exemplars, a lot of people don't seem to realise that in fact it's the bottom deck that is at platform level, fully accessible, unlike in Sydney where the platform level is only at the ends of the cars, so there's very little accessible space compared to the European equivalents.

[Swift]

Too many deluded fools in their insular bus industry fiefdom here who will continue to refuse to hear that Australia's bus industry leaves a lot to be desired.
It's all about putting on a performance for the cameras with latest announcements and "pride in what we've achieved". It's all a con and they know it. They are fully aware we fall short. It's all about doing it the cheapest and easiest they can get away with.

[Merc1107]

It's all about doing it the cheapest and easiest they can get away with.

This. A lot of vehicles are clearly, undoubtedly, built to a price, not to a standard. When lights are forever "on the blink", and fit and finish are lackluster, it makes you wonder just how much "Australian pride" goes into some products. Perhaps locally bodied buses should have the same labels as food, "Made from X % Australian ingredients."

[Campbelltown busboy]

The first low entry in Australia, a Scania in Tasmania, appeared in 1992, so that was pretty much the same time as low entrys appeared in Europe, but, whereas Europe quickly progressed to low floors (and now Singapore and Japan are moving that direction), Australia has remained stuck with the low entry bus, the only significant examples of low floors to date being the Renault/Irisbus, the Scania N series and the Custom Denning Element.

The Australian public needs to get educated into the differences between fully flat low floor and low entry so maybe use a CD element and any low entry bus but getting into that whole discussion will take this thread way off topic

[ScaniaGrenda]

The Australian public needs to get educated into the differences between fully flat low floor and low entry so maybe use a CD element and any low entry bus but getting into that whole discussion will take this thread way off topic

Thank you about time someone else brings this matter up, nothing is more annoying than referring to a "Low entry bus" as a "low floor bus" which only applies until you're at the rear gangway where the low entry ends and high-floor begins. Low Entries should be referred to as such and low floor should be kept to what it is, a bus that has no steps what so ever.

However as you mentioned off topic, I'll leave it here.

[tonyp]

The relevance to the topic is that electrification has presented a clean sheet opportunity for better bus design and most (Australian and Chinese) manufacturers in the Australian market (and North American, from the few photos I've seen) have blown the opportunity. European manufacturers are already on the ball because of the expectations of the European market. Custom Denning stands alone as the Australian manufacturer with the biggest smarts. I think Volgren is clever enough that it could have been alongside CD if it had developed its own electric bus, but it has chosen to remain a bodybuilder, so is captive to the qualities of whatever chassis is under their bodies.

It will be interesting to see how the battery bus market develops in North America as it shares some of Europe's climate conditions. Batteries lose up to about one third of their range in sub zero freezing conditions, a significant reason why trolleybuses remain a popular choice in Europe. I guess we won't face that particular problem in Australia.

[Fleet Lists]

The Australian public needs to get educated into the differences between fully flat low floor and low entry so maybe use a CD element and any low entry bus but getting into that whole discussion will take this thread way off topic

I agree with the relevance as far as the development of electric buses in Australia is concerned. But why does the public have the be educated on this? I would say that over 90% of people would not care what the difference is. A far as they are concerned, as long as they get their bus, irrespective of type, they would be happy.

[tonyp]

I agree with the relevance as far as the development of electric buses in Australia is concerned. But why does the public have the be educated on this? I would say that over 90% of people would not care what the difference is. A far as they are concerned, as long as they get their bus, irrespective of type, they would be happy.

It's the agencies, operators and manufacturers who need to be educated, but, as for the public, I suspect that the small but significant proportion of the population with mobility impediments will soon notice the gigantic stairs in the low entry electric buses as they become more numerous on the road - more daunting than the stairs in most of the better diesel low entry models. I've already had plenty of experience of that in the Blue Emu BYDs at Sydney Airport, where sometimes a crush load of 60 people (I've counted them) will be jammed like sardines on the low floor because nobody wants to go up the mountainous stairs to the high floor, where a scattering of flight crew and airside staff, unencumbered by bags, sit in spacious luxury. Low entry buses really don't work in crowds and heaven help you if you need a seat but can't make it up the stairs.

[Swift]

So is Sydney's first genuine low floor, the Element, being churned out as we speak or is there still hysteria over batteries that may detonate?

[tonyp]

So is Sydney's first genuine low floor, the Element, being churned out as we speak or is there still hysteria over batteries that may detonate?

There is no issue about the batteries, that was a furphy. Just a production holdup,now over and churning out.

[Swift]

Can't wait to see the three door model real soon -export only.

[Linto63]

There is no issue about the batteries, that was a furphy. Just a production holdup, now over and churning out.

Supply chain delays would explain why few have rolled off the production line recently, but clearly there was an issue of some sought that led to both Sydney operators simultaneously parking their fleets up for several months.

Agree with others that the low floor vs low entrance debate is off topic. There is a dedicated thread where that discussion can be continued.

[Merc1107]

I have to agree, sizeable numbers of new buses are not parked without very good reason. The information vacuum on the matter makes me feel whatever it was, was of an incredibly sensitive nature; right or not, I'm not ready to completely dismiss the role of batteries in this (however minor).

[Linto63]

Was not long after a fire in Europe so putting 2+2 together was probably on the manufacturer’s recommendation, either Custom Denning or that of the component. That 16 buses being parked up didn’t get any media attention is not really surprising.

[ScaniaGrenda]

Can't wait to see the three door model real soon -export only.

Carbridge seems happy with their BYD's and all however they are just one mob that I could see them picking up a 3 door CDE, after it's been configured to airport specifications with luggage racks and all. Maybe I could see Skybus with one too?

It's not electric but I'm sure I've seen a photo of them operating a 3 door Optare Tempo at one stage too.

[tonyp]

Carbridge seems happy with their BYD's and all however they are just one mob that I could see them picking up a 3 door CDE, after it's been configured to airport specifications with luggage racks and all. Maybe I could see Skybus with one too?

It's not electric but I'm sure I've seen a photo of them operating a 3 door Optare Tempo at one stage too.

An operator being happy with a bus is no indication of its success. They don't travel in it day by day.

For three doors to be fully effective, the third door needs to be behind the rear axle so that there are no internal caves causing blockages. The Optares are more functional because the stairs to the back are much more gentle, so passengers are more likely to populate the rear section of the bus.

Even though the BYDs have three doors, their functionality is terrible because, apart from the issue of the stairs, the luggage racks are too far forward, so people using the third door have to fight their way through the crowd (often really dense) for their bags. Because the bus passes the Virgin terminal first, boarding Virgin passengers block up the bus, making it extremely difficult for Qantas passengers to get their bags and disembark at the next stop. At night, the wrap on the windows makes it impossible to see your stop in the car park coming up because of the glare of the lights outside.

In relation to their purpose, they must be one of the worst-designed buses I've come across. The management must never ride them, which I'd say is a syndrome producing poor outcomes across the industry.

[Linto63]

An operator being happy with a bus is no indication of its success.

Rubbish.

Getting back on track, Keolis Downer’s Bustech ZDi 2900 has commenced driver training on the streets of Newcastle.

[tonyp]

An operator being happy with a bus is no indication of its success.

Rubbish.

Not rubbish. Functionality is an important measure of success, along with the other issues such as reliability, maintenance and economics. After all, the bus is there for a purpose and should be fit for that purpose.

[Swift]

An operator being happy with a bus is no indication of its success.

Rubbish.

That settled it then, case closed.