NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

blow1940 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:14 pm It is good to see the bus has acctually been usable for a day, the vehicle was in the shed for the major of the time it has been in Bathurst as it was not driveable, it then had to be taken back to sydney to be worked on.

Each operator that has had the vehicle has had issues with the vehicle not being able to complete its services or even start them.

Just because it has a sunken isle at the rear does not make this vehicle Australias best, I am also sure you will find many passegner will not use the rear facing seats as they wont want to be rubbing each others private areas with their knees.
I'd have to be convinced with evidence of that. All I've seen is the buses built so far out and running regularly in a number of locations with little sign of any issues. The only one I've heard about was a software issue. Don't forget that this is, not only a new bus, but a completely new design from the ground up, power train and all. The power train technology itself is completely new to an Australian production bus. It would be unprecedented if there were no teething issues. Give it a chance. As ScaniaGrenda says, it is a fantastic achievement for Australian industry. On top of all that, it's a completely modern and functional Australian commuter bus, unlike the compromised anachronisms we've been using to date. And it now has a companion in the Volvo BZL, so the path it's on is the right one.
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ScaniaGrenda
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

tonyp wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:39 pm All I've seen is the buses built so far out and running regularly in a number of locations with little sign of any issues. The only one I've heard about was a software issue. Don't forget that this is, not only a new bus, but a completely new design from the ground up, power train and all. The power train technology itself is completely new to an Australian production bus. It would be unprecedented if there were no teething issues. Give it a chance.
Agreed, this is only the beginning & for something to begin without the technical or teething problems I'd be very wary of, that's not to say things can't be built or designed to perfection but this is using new technology as you've stated and its strengths and weaknesses would be a very important factor both the manufacture and customer (operator of the bus) would want to be aware of. The Teething problems can be ironed out when they arise and hopefully action taken to resolve it for the next batch or generation of E-Buses.

As one really into Information Technology, I'll mention that technology is ever evolving and growing, a decade ago smart homes were probably here and there but were not as common as they are today, now a decade on in the present day, one can control a lot of their smart devices from anywhere in the planet (as long as they have internet access) at the click of a button. So too do I see the E-Bus Technology being improved on, if what is present now is a problem or limiting factor, wait a decade (10 years seems long but trust me on this), In 2031, society will look back on how far they've come and go "Now that wasn't so hard was it?".

I look forward to seeing the next 10 years of progress, we're in for the long ride but remember, it'll definitely pay off. We all have to start somewhere and over time, we improve and become better.
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blow1940
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by blow1940 »

I will agree to disagree, I would prefer my tax money going on vehicles that can complete the services they are purchased for, simply saying we need to give a inferior product a chance as it is built in Australia from majority imported parts doesnt sit well with me.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

There's absolutely no evidence at this stage that it's an inferior product. Far too early to call judgement
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

How many Elements are now in service over that way?

No make or model, no matter how cutting edge or conventional, is ever immune from the odd lemon cropping up. Consider the large homogeneous fleets at many depots - there is no doubt that in such a fleet there will be a small handful of buses that simply refuse to cooperate, despite the best and most expensive undertakings by maintenance.
Am sure that in spite of their relative simplicity, even Electrics will have the same problems.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

I've lost track of how many demonstrators and where they are. There are 16 purchases so far - ten for State Transit and six for Busways, of which the Busways ones are starting to be delivered and entering service.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stonesourscotty »

Atleast 2 are in service at Busways possibly 3 but the fleetlist is out of date
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boronia
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

‘Make them in Australia’: NSW looks local for next transport fleet

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/mak ... 59gkl.html
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Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

From the SMH: Make them in Australia: NSW looks local for next NSW fleet

Appears the ferry and tram fiascos have brought about a change in thinking. Depends on how locally manufactured is defined though. IIRC the Waratah trains were sold as having significant local input, when all that was done in Australia was nailing down the seats.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Made in Australia could mean a range of things. For a bus, there's body and chassis made in Australia (Custom Denning, Bustech and maybe Ebusco coming up), but there are going to be a number of imported components included in that. For example, we don't make electric drive motors in Australia, though that could change with enough volume. Or, there's the body made in Australia and the chassis and drivetrain imported, which is what we've been doing for eons and all other Australian bus manufacturers from Volgren downwards specialise in body-only like that.

The next issue then is cost and, in terms of budget, the government is going to have to consider whether to allow the market to be flooded with Chinese chassis/drivetrains (BYD) or complete Chinese buses (Yutong), because frankly they cost much less than the Australian product, thanks to cheap and slave labour. Part of the financial calculation there should take account of the fact that Chinese buses are not built for a 25 year lifespan as is expected for an Australian-made bus, so they will need replacing sooner, likely after 10 to 15 years.

So, if they want to go fully Australian, those 8,000 buses are going to cost (taking into account earlier rolling replacement of Chinese chassis/buses) probably at least 50% more than if they were all imported from China. One big advantage of Australian made though is the local supply chain that is fertilised as a result and it's these wider economic benefits that must be taken into account. There has been too much emphasis on saving money with initial capex and no long term or broader view. Defence procurement has taken this position. It costs at least 50% more to build a warship in Australia, but a huge local industry has grown up around that which produces benefits for the rest of the economy.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:48 am One big advantage of Australian made though is the local supply chain that is fertilised as a result and it's these wider economic benefits that must be taken into account. There has been too much emphasis on saving money with initial capex and no long term or broader view. Defence procurement has taken this position. It costs at least 50% more to build a warship in Australia, but a huge local industry has grown up around that which produces benefits for the rest of the economy.
A lot of these externalities, much like the pollution savings of modern buses, cannot truly be calculated in true monetary cost, thus their value to society is in the eyes of the beholder.

Certainly though there is a shocking obsession with upfront costings, with no regard for the longer-term impact. This mistake is repeated over and over with major infrastructure projects that are never truly executed properly in one hit, and are ultimately partially (even entirely) demolished a short ways down the track to rectify issues that should not have existed. Freeways particularly seem to be one of the worst examples - a four lane example is constructed, and expected to be sufficient for half a century. Within a decade there are incessant piecemeal works underway to rebuild the whole thing to 6 lanes.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:27 am
A lot of these externalities, much like the pollution savings of modern buses, cannot truly be calculated in true monetary cost, thus their value to society is in the eyes of the beholder.
There have been calculations done, some of which I've seen over the years. Obviously a government needs to take a macro view and work out the benefits in the big picture. WIth electric buses for example, there is a higher upfront cost, but then this should be offset to some extent by lower WOL costs. The thing to watch out for is that the public transport budget isn't indirectly diminished.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:46 pm How many Elements are now in service over that way?
I can now answer the "how many" question from information given to me dated October 2021 (so there may be small adjustments for demonstrators since then). The first set of figures is current including demonstrators, including some still in delivery process. Busways are all Elements plus there are a couple of Element demonstrators floating around alternating among the others.The second set of figures is future ordered and committed so far. For convenience, I have continued on to a national summary as well.

CURRENT

NSW
Busways 7
Transit Systems 17
Punchbowl Bus 5
Interline 10
Transdev 3

VIC
Transdev 1
Ventura 1

QLD
Transdev 1
Logan Coaches 2
BCC 4

NON-GOVT
Carbridge Sydney 6
Carbridge Brisbane 12

FUTURE

NSW
Transdev (Region 9) 136 Custom Denning Element
Unknown operators and regions 60 Bustech

VIC
Kinetic 36 Unknown (Volgren bodied)

QLD
Logan City Brisbane 10 Bustech
Hornibrook Brisbane 16 Bustech
BCC 60 Hess
Sunbus Sunshine Coast 5 Yutong
Sunbus Cairns 5 Yutong

WA
Swan Perth 4 Volvo BZL (Volgren bodied)

ACT
Transit Canberra 90 Unknown
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

AFAIK, only 10 Custom Dennings have been confirmed for region 9, the supplier of the remaining 126 to be delivered over the next eight years has yet to be determined. Wouldn't be counting the 60 that Bustech have reported as ordered yet, they are more likely to be options rather than firm orders, given that the prototype has yet to surface.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

I understand that NSW data is from TfNSW. Orders may well include options, but the tag on that column is "ordered and committed".
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by BAMBAM »

tonyp wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:54 am
Merc1107 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:46 pm How many Elements are now in service over that way?
I can now answer the "how many" question from information given to me dated October 2021 (so there may be small adjustments for demonstrators since then). The first set of figures is current including demonstrators, including some still in delivery process. Busways are all Elements plus there are a couple of Element demonstrators floating around alternating among the others.The second set of figures is future ordered and committed so far. For convenience, I have continued on to a national summary as well.

CURRENT

NSW
Busways 7
Transit Systems 17
Punchbowl Bus 5
Interline 10
Transdev 3

VIC
Transdev 1
Ventura 1

QLD
Transdev 1
Logan Coaches 2
BCC 4

NON-GOVT
Carbridge Sydney 6
Carbridge Brisbane 12

FUTURE

NSW
Transdev (Region 9) 136 Custom Denning Element
Unknown operators and regions 60 Bustech

VIC
Kinetic 36 Unknown (Volgren bodied)

QLD
Logan City Brisbane 10 Bustech
Hornibrook Brisbane 16 Bustech
BCC 60 Hess
Sunbus Sunshine Coast 5 Yutong
Sunbus Cairns 5 Yutong

WA
Swan Perth 4 Volvo BZL (Volgren bodied)

ACT
Transit Canberra 90 Unknown
You can add Busabout with 5 BYD Gemilang buses to their fleet. Doesn’t TSA Sydney have more than you mentioned if you looked at their fleet list?
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rogf24
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by rogf24 »

I think TSA would have more, but given that info is dated October.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

I can see if Busabout has any of their BYDs on the road yet if I see one I'll try to get a photo of it
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by BAMBAM »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:59 pm I can see if Busabout has any of their BYDs on the road yet if I see one I'll try to get a photo of it
One already floating around on Facebook, taken at Campbelltown Station
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

BAMBAM wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:34 pm
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:59 pm I can see if Busabout has any of their BYDs on the road yet if I see one I'll try to get a photo of it
One already floating around on Facebook, taken at Campbelltown Station
I've been blocked from a few Facebook groups so where is this photo on Facebook
BAMBAM
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by BAMBAM »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:39 pm [quote=BAMBAM post_id=<a href="tel:1085155">1085155</a> time=<a href="tel:1639305248">1639305248</a> user_id=8428]
[quote="Campbelltown busboy" post_id=<a href="tel:1085154">1085154</a> time=<a href="tel:1639303183">1639303183</a> user_id=16805]
I can see if Busabout has any of their BYDs on the road yet if I see one I'll try to get a photo of it
One already floating around on Facebook, taken at Campbelltown Station
[/quote] I've been blocked from a few Facebook groups so where is this photo on Facebook
[/quote]

Not my photo so I will not post on here. I’m sure you’ll be able to get one like you said if you get a chance to go out.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

I can't even find Busabout in Fleetlists but I'll take it as read that they have five.

The October date on that list would no doubt explain the lower figures, so the current figures for NSW would be:

Busabout 5 BYD
Busways 6 Custom Denning (presumably the demonstrator has gone?)
Transit Systems 35 BYD 1 Yutong
Punchbowl 5 BYD
Interline 15 Yutong 1 BCI
Transdev 3 BYD

Another interesting piece of information from my source is rough figures of the Australian cost of an electric bus, relative to a diesel 12 metre which is given at about $450,000. I was already aware in Europe, where buses are considerably cheaper than Australian prices, that a trolleybus typically costs about 50% more than a diesel, so with batteries the cost would be higher. The figures given for NSW are about $750,000 for a battery electric bus and $1,200,000 (ye gods!) for a fuel cell electric (hydrogen) bus. There has been a suggestion from the Hornibrook order that Bustech ZDis are coming in at about $1 million, but that has to be confirmed. I have no idea about the CD Element. It would be interesting to know how much the Perth Volgren/Volvo BZLs are costing per unit.

On a per passenger capacity basis, a hydrogen bus would be more expensive than a tram. The accountants would have to be doing some nifty footwork to justify that one, but then again saving the environment nowadays appears to have no cost limits, except that those who can least afford it end up paying more for it while the wealthy profit out of it. It's bonkers. In-motion charging trolleybuses with some small battery capacity would do the job perfectly, but why spend less when you can hurl money at more expensive solutions? Because somebody can make more money out of the more expensive solution is why.

A financially revolutionary result of this mass electrification is that the purchase costs of buses will double but the operating costs should be more than halved. Taxpayers will get a big hit, but operators should benefit if they don't have to buy the bus.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Trolleybuses are a relic of the past, the cost of electrifying thousands of kilometres of roads would be prohibitively expensive and likely be unpopular on aesthetic grounds. The case would be more economical on trunk routes, but then you lose the flexibility to continue beyond. That few cities without legacy systems are introducing trolleybuses as part of their move away from diesel buses would suggest the numbers stack up in favour of electric buses.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Modern trolleybuses only require overhead wires for less than 50% of the routes. The rest of the service is run on the batteries that are charged while under the wires. Certainly the tangle of junctions has become a thing of the past so aesthetically it's no worse than a tram line. New systems are usually in cities that already have tramway power supply, so there's little need for new power supply infrastructure. The battery electric bus is a physically easier solution for most cities without trams.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

Electric bus local manufacturing commitment a ‘mountain to climb’

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ele ... 59k5l.html
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