NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:49 am When I was last in Railway Square several weeks ago, I noticed some with thick rear wheel hubs reminiscent of Mercedes Benz axles, but with fluting built into them presumably for cooling effect. I take these to be the hub motored ones.
Yes the BYDs have hub motors. Hub motors also tend to cause tyre scrubbing, hence shortening tyre life.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:23 am
Swift wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:49 am When I was last in Railway Square several weeks ago, I noticed some with thick rear wheel hubs reminiscent of Mercedes Benz axles, but with fluting built into them presumably for cooling effect. I take these to be the hub motored ones.
Yes the BYDs have hub motors. Hub motors also tend to cause tyre scrubbing, hence shortening tyre life.
Let me guess, bought them because they're cheep! Cheep!
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Swift wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:11 am Let me guess, bought them because they're cheep! Cheep!
Yes, Chinese buses are significantly cheaper, but that's been going on for a few years, even before electric buses. They're also designed for a much shorter service life, so I'm not sure where the saving is. Many of us commit the same sin in K Mart or when buying a car no doubt.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

In China buses are chucked in the bin after only a decade. Why do they import them into a country that runs them for at least 20 years? Oh yes, my previous point.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by booma »

At this stage is it possible to predict if any electric bus will last more than 10 years with a heavy duty workload?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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booma wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:08 pm At this stage is it possible to predict if any electric bus will last more than 10 years with a heavy duty workload?
Apart from the body, which from an Australian manufacturer should last at least 25 years, the life of a battery-electric bus will be determined by the economics of replacing the battery pack. At present the predicted life of those is up to about 8 years and the cost is about $150,000 afaik. So the first replacement would definitely occur, the second would require deeper analysis and the third one even deeper. The fourth one is unlikely to happen (and the motorhome business will die an early death!). Before the advent of the modern battery buses, trolleybuses commonly had a life of about 30 years because their structure wasn't subjected to the stresses that a diesel bus suffered.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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What's the ride and handling like on them? Up to scratch or still working out the suspension settings on a bus with different weight distribution and getting a hard as rocks ride our lots of float and roll?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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tonyp wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:45 pm the life of a battery-electric bus will be determined by the economics of replacing the battery pack. At present the predicted life of those is up to about 8 years and the cost is about $150,000 afaik. So the first replacement would definitely occur, the second would require deeper analysis and the third one even deeper. The fourth one is unlikely to happen (and the motorhome business will die an early death!).
I think we'll see a repeat of the events of what STA did with their CNG buses, 10 year mark seems still rather young to retire a bus if other than really the battery it is still considered roadworthy, they'll chuck a new battery in and the bus will be good to possibly go. The next time that second battery is up fore replacement, the bus will be about 15-20 years old which would be nearing the retirement timeframe of that of diesel buses, we might just scrape by and see another battery replacement done and have it back out on the road but I can't imagine it going further than a 3rd replacement.

By the time the bus comes up for it's third replacement, You'll have had plenty of newer electric vehicles introduced here which would be using more vast technology and improvements over our V1 or other words MK1 electric buses, I think what we're also seeing now should be used as a stepping stone and It's great don't get me wrong but we shouldn't just consider this a done and dusted job and say there's no further improvements to be made. We've still also got electric coaches that would need to be introduced in due time as well.

As for what happens when our E-Buses are retired, pretty much treated like CNG scrap vehicles, the batteries will be removed and all you really have left is a shell of what was once a vehicle that could be operated, someone will likely be buying them up for otherwise spare parts, the rest meet the crusher and get made into something new.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Do you think we haven't heard mention of trolley buses because our transport planners are so clueless or is it because building infrastructure costs so much in this country? Trolley buses can get by with smaller batteries which is not only is good for their costs but also for the environment. You'd think at least some trunk routes would be good candidates for wiring.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Passenger 57 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:13 pm Do you think we haven't heard mention of trolley buses because our transport planners are so clueless or is it because building infrastructure costs so much in this country? Trolley buses can get by with smaller batteries which is not only is good for their costs but also for the environment. You'd think at least some trunk routes would be good candidates for wiring.
Trolleybus systems are the cheapest and most effective electric bus system to implement and operate. That includes the cost of the infrastructure which is actually quite cheap, contrary to usual assumptions. Carrying your power supply on board (as in a battery-electric or fuel cell bus) is very costly, as well as increasing weight (thus reducing passenger capacity) and downtime and reducing range available without stopping for static charging. The emergence of the battery trolleybus more than a decade ago has given the trolleybus a new life and enabled existing systems to be expanded off wire as well as reducing the amount of wiring needed, which is now typically confined to trunk sections and/or hills.

Having said all that, there has been a mindset against trolleybuses here since the 1930s as the combustion-engined bus rose to supremacy, though it's interesting that the Adelaide O Bahn runway was built in the 1980s with bases for stanchions in case somebody decided to convert it to trolley operation in the future. Nowadays, the local industry is learning electric as though for the first time all over again and the trolley option isn't even within the scope of thinking. I imagine it will be at least a generation before somebody notices developments in Europe and starts thinking whether it's an option. By then, doubtless there will be other innovations that will reset the scene as well.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Passenger 57 »

Speaking of guided buses are there any systems you are impressed with?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Passenger 57 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:54 am Speaking of guided buses are there any systems you are impressed with?
No! I think that if it's going to be guided, it should be a tram or train. The Adelaide O bahn has been very popular though, but it gets away with it because not that many people use public transport in Adelaide. If there was a serious uptake of public transport use, it would be short of capacity. Buses have their limits. I think it is possible to convert it to a tram line in the future.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Passenger 57 »

If there is requirement for off guideway operation a (conventional) tram or train is not a possible solution. There is a benefit to guidance in some situations even when vehicle capacity is low. Magnetic/optical guidance is cheap too. While capacity is not the strong suit of buses they may be the only solution in some circumstances. Let's not forget that buses don't result in the loss of as many parking spots as trams or require special traffic management so we need to figure out how more can be done with buses. Can magnetic/optical guidance improve bus capacity or result in other service improvements? I don't know but we certainly need more innovation with buses as some areas will not see higher capacity modes added.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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I feel that the lack of trolley buses might be more political. There’d probably be a loud minority complaining about how “the wires and poles will ruin the aesthetics of the street”. This sort of thing led to the George Street third rail.

Of course, you can run on battery on that section of street but then people in other streets might start to feel it’s a bit unfair, and you’re then left with little to no wires.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by grog »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:45 pm Apart from the body, which from an Australian manufacturer should last at least 25 years, the life of a battery-electric bus will be determined by the economics of replacing the battery pack. At present the predicted life of those is up to about 8 years and the cost is about $150,000 afaik. So the first replacement would definitely occur, the second would require deeper analysis and the third one even deeper. The fourth one is unlikely to happen (and the motorhome business will die an early death!). Before the advent of the modern battery buses, trolleybuses commonly had a life of about 30 years because their structure wasn't subjected to the stresses that a diesel bus suffered.
Batteries are getting cheaper and more energy dense every year. The first 8 year replacement will likely be much cheaper than the initial battery, and smaller/lighter or with a longer range. The second or even third replacements will probably be a no brainer if the body can handle it.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Randomness wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:46 am I feel that the lack of trolley buses might be more political. There’d probably be a loud minority complaining about how “the wires and poles will ruin the aesthetics of the street”. This sort of thing led to the George Street third rail.

Of course, you can run on battery on that section of street but then people in other streets might start to feel it’s a bit unfair, and you’re then left with little to no wires.
That whole political thing about overhead wires is absolutely stupid, especially in the Australian context where there are few historical or exceptionally aesthetic streetscapes and, in any case, the wires typically aren't seriously visible against a background clutter of advertising, street furniture and other distraction. Still, when some influential urban aesthetes are in a tizz you can't stop the momentum, but going wireless has penalised street public transport with higher costs (capex and opex), reduced reliability, increased downtime and reduced passenger capacity (for buses). While the extra weight doesn't reduce passenger capacity in trams because they're supported by rails, it does increase power consumption and thus operating costs.

You'd have to ask whether a solution like this:

Image

is genuinely more attractive than an elegant solution like this:

Image

Or whether limited runs of this (without the tangled turnouts and crossings of years past) are seriously offensive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybu ... -praha.jpg

Still, it's hardly the only nonsense around that constrains common sense solutions and we just have to live with it.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Australia the land of indulgent whiners. No wonder it's a backwater.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Tony, do you think Brisbane Metro's plan to fast charge in under 6 minutes at termini of their system is workable? I'm not aware of anything like that proposed here for bus operation. Would I be right to guess that will result in more peaky power requirements? I notice I haven't seen a write up where they are referred to as trolleybuses. Is there a different pantograph design for stationary charging? I have seen the term trackless tram and I admit I really hate that oxymoron.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

This video shows how the charging works. https://youtu.be/jmqynryMJLk

The fast charge is meant to top-up the bus for it to keep going, not fully recharge it. It's unclear whether this is after each run, or a round trip.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Passenger 57 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:03 pm Tony, do you think Brisbane Metro's plan to fast charge in under 6 minutes at termini of their system is workable? I'm not aware of anything like that proposed here for bus operation. Would I be right to guess that will result in more peaky power requirements? I notice I haven't seen a write up where they are referred to as trolleybuses. Is there a different pantograph design for stationary charging? I have seen the term trackless tram and I admit I really hate that oxymoron.
The general story is that they haven't advanced development of all-day running for a city bus on one overnight charge beyond a 12 metre bus. Anything larger (Including double deckers) has too much mass to move along for a reasonable-size battery pack to last all day. (Even worse for trams of course.) First, they tried solutions that kept the buses moving, without downtime during operation. An obvious solution that is successful is the battery-trolleybus. Another solution that was trialled for a while was induction charging through a loop in the road, but that was found too costly, with high maintenance.

So then, accepting that some downtime is inevitable unless the bus is running on wires, various opportunity charging methods came into use, varying in extent according to the demands of individual operations. So there's an overnight charge, same as for a 12 metre bus, then out on the road, opportunity charging towers are provided at intervals required by the buses. Brisbane has obviously decided that chargers at termini are sufficient and it takes about 6 minutes.

The main disadvantage I see in this, apart from power peaks, is that if a bus is running late and needs to borrow from its layover time to catch up, it can't because it's tethered to a post for 6 minutes. Other bus systems sometimes have more opportunity charging points along routes and Hess has developed a system (TOSA) that is claimed to be able to deliver a flash charge within a 20 second dwell time (I wonder what that does to the battery life?). You'll find in Europe, even many 12 metre buses using opportunity charging because of smaller battery packs because the operators don't like losing capacity due to big, heavy battery packs. In Australia, I wonder how long we'll continue to tolerate big hits to capacity for the sake of taking enough batteries on board to keep running all day.

There's still some evolution to go and an interesting development thinking outside the square is the Ebusco 3.0 which sheds a couple of tonnes of tare weight due to a lightweight carbon fibre body. I wonder how much that costs?!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Mr OC Benz »

tonyp wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:23 pmThere's still some evolution to go and an interesting development thinking outside the square is the Ebusco 3.0 which sheds a couple of tonnes of tare weight due to a lightweight carbon fibre body. I wonder how much that costs?!
A recent media release from Ebusco suggests their new Ebusco 3.0 18 metre articulated version has a range of up to 700 kilometres, which is significant if true. It basically negates any need for opportunity charging and well and truly exceeds the range of many existing diesel articulated buses. All while still carrying 150 passengers (Euro standard) and only needing single tyres on each axle, allowing for a wider interior aisle from front to rear.

https://www.ebusco.com/au/ebusco-reveal ... -18-meter/
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Unless you get a load of fatties.
tonyp wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:23 pm Other bus systems sometimes have more opportunity charging points along routes and Hess has developed a system (TOSA) that is claimed to be able to deliver a flash charge within a 20 second dwell time (I wonder what that does to the battery life?).
What a hilariously apt acronym for whoever came up with that idea.

Maybe someone thinks they can come up with full autonomous perpetual amperage -or FAPA.
Or wireless ability, negligable kilograms, endless range!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Passenger 57 »

Thanks Tony.

Using partial on-wire operation seems the safest approach to achieve the same objectives and would also have the advantage of being better understood and subject to fewer patents. I wonder if Brisbane fairly compared the two systems or put their fingers on the scale to heavily weight the aesthetics of wire free operation.

If work agreement enforces a layover time then there would be limited opportunity to make up time but unless there are sufficient facilities at the terminii to charge multiple buses simultaneously or other redundant charging points the inability to make up time lost in charging leads to a loss of capacity. If there isn't redundant charging capability perhaps a sub 3 minute charge time suffices in normal circumstances.

Brisbane claims to be using TOSA but I guess they are using it with much bigger batteries. I can't imagine much heat will build up in 6 minutes..
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Mr OC Benz wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:20 pm A recent media release from Ebusco suggests their new Ebusco 3.0 18 metre articulated version has a range of up to 700 kilometres, which is significant if true. It basically negates any need for opportunity charging and well and truly exceeds the range of many existing diesel articulated buses. All while still carrying 150 passengers (Euro standard) and only needing single tyres on each axle, allowing for a wider interior aisle from front to rear.

https://www.ebusco.com/au/ebusco-reveal ... -18-meter/
Ebusco 3.0 sounds promising, but the Ebusco 2.2 was disappointing, being just another Chinese bus. It will be interesting to see if this artic comes to Australia and how it fits with Australian regs.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Passenger 57 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:28 pm If work agreement enforces a layover time then there would be limited opportunity to make up time but unless there are sufficient facilities at the terminii to charge multiple buses simultaneously or other redundant charging points the inability to make up time lost in charging leads to a loss of capacity. If there isn't redundant charging capability perhaps a sub 3 minute charge time suffices in normal circumstances.
There are presently works ongoing to install the recharging facilities at a couple of points along the Busway system. Given the services are expected to run every 5mins (it seems the 3min service level originally proposed won't happen, at least not initially), that would suggest needing to have an absolute minimum of two recharging points at a terminus where recharging is to take place. Hypothetically, a bus arriving at :05 cannot leave until :11, in an ideal scenario where it can recharge, and passengers load/unload concurrently. Another bus would arrive at :10, and not be able to leave until :16.

If the system is organised with 10min turnarounds as standard, perhaps it would be possible for a bus to be 'stepped up' to an earlier trip where another bus will arrive late, and needs to recharge.

I suspect it would not be feasible to get away with a shorter recharge if the buses need that opportunity after every trip, or every other trip, but then again, I'm not aware of all (or any of!) the technical limitations of vehicles dependent on flash-recharges, so that should be taken with a grain of salt.
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