New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Qantas94Heavy
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Qantas94Heavy »

In terms of the changes to 'loop' services around Eddy Ave, I think 311 and 339 will be fine but a bit concerned about late running along Cleveland St on the 374.

In theory they could relocate some coach services back to Eddy Ave. If you look at the bus routes, apart from 310 (which could easily skip it) there's no bus route that would stop at Eddy Ave Stand A. I don't know whether or not they'd actually do this though.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by stupid_girl »

Qantas94Heavy wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:27 am In terms of the changes to 'loop' services around Eddy Ave, I think 311 and 339 will be fine but a bit concerned about late running along Cleveland St on the 374.

In theory they could relocate some coach services back to Eddy Ave. If you look at the bus routes, apart from 310 (which could easily skip it) there's no bus route that would stop at Eddy Ave Stand A. I don't know whether or not they'd actually do this though.
According to the timetable, these routes will layover at Belmore Park. (not loop service)
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Michael Bamborough »

1whoknows wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:07 am I think I read somewhere that Railway Square is to become th new coach terminal.
That would possibly make sense. Tho i don't see why they still can't have buses there too.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

New routes are live in the real time apps (as are warnings for routes to be withdrawn) to search if you’re keen to see them there and/or the stops served

390x appears to be mostly the same as 400 between Bondi and Maroubra Jn in terms of stops served, but I very interestingly note they’ve added another stop in Frenchmans Road in Randwick to compensate for the fact that all the other local all stops routes on that road (314, 316, 317, 348) are being withdrawn. 390X then stops at all stops between Kingsford and Maroubra Jn unlike 400 …
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by stupid_girl »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:16 pm New routes are live in the real time apps (as are warnings for routes to be withdrawn) to search if you’re keen to see them there and/or the stops served

390x appears to be mostly the same as 400 between Bondi and Maroubra Jn in terms of stops served, but I very interestingly note they’ve added another stop in Frenchmans Road in Randwick to compensate for the fact that all the other local all stops routes on that road (314, 316, 317, 348) are being withdrawn. 390X then stops at all stops between Kingsford and Maroubra Jn unlike 400 …
390X still runs limited stop between Kingsford and Maroubra Junction (compared to 396 and 399).
Interestingly, it will make an additional stop at UNSW gate 2.

350 will make all stops between Eastgardens and Airport. Hope the journey time won't be too much worse than 400/420.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by In Transit »

You can now compare the timetables to see. Taking midday on a weekday, the 350 has been given the same time as the 400 currently gets between Domestic and Eastgardens. This makes sense, as for much of the distance it's unlikely the 350 will stop very much more often than the 400 did in this section of route, as there aren't that many additional stops and they are unlikely to be well used anyway.

Then you have the benefit of a 10 minute daytime frequency all week, which although at times is fewer buses per hour than the old combined 400/420, means maximum waiting times will be less (eg at the moment there are 7 400+420's during weekday off peak hours, however their different headways means you can have scheduled gaps of up to 15 minutes - compared to 6 350's per hour, but with a maximum waiting time of 10 minutes).
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

In Transit wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:41 am You can now compare the timetables to see. Taking midday on a weekday, the 350 has been given the same time as the 400 currently gets between Domestic and Eastgardens. This makes sense, as for much of the distance it's unlikely the 350 will stop very much more often than the 400 did in this section of route, as there aren't that many additional stops and they are unlikely to be well used anyway.
Problem is if you get two or more people that would have used one stop, now get off separately at two or more, that's going to slow the bus down and possibly cause it to run behind schedule.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

stupid_girl wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:52 pm
Jurassic_Joke wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:16 pm New routes are live in the real time apps (as are warnings for routes to be withdrawn) to search if you’re keen to see them there and/or the stops served

390x appears to be mostly the same as 400 between Bondi and Maroubra Jn in terms of stops served, but I very interestingly note they’ve added another stop in Frenchmans Road in Randwick to compensate for the fact that all the other local all stops routes on that road (314, 316, 317, 348) are being withdrawn. 390X then stops at all stops between Kingsford and Maroubra Jn unlike 400 …
390X still runs limited stop between Kingsford and Maroubra Junction (compared to 396 and 399).
Interestingly, it will make an additional stop at UNSW gate 2.

350 will make all stops between Eastgardens and Airport. Hope the journey time won't be too much worse than 400/420.

Yeah that’s really not a good thing

So if you live in the rather large suburb of Randwick, you just lost your direct bus to Eastgardens shops and the Airport, then your connecting 350 bus at Maroubra is all stops, and on top of that, just as our international travel ban was dropped, the 350 doesn’t even go as far as international airport, it ends at Domestic. Currently, you just get the 400 and you’re all set to go wherever you want along the route.

How is this supposed to be an improvement? It’s literally a step backwards and has nothing to do with the light rails route.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by In Transit »

I live with an easy connection to the 400, and prior to Covid I travelled overseas between 15 and 20 times a year. In a decade I think I caught the 400 from International only once rather than taking the train... which is reflected in the low patronage that I've always seen on the 400 passing through Domestic (most of whom are only travelling between Mascot and the Airport to avoid the station access fee - and will still be able to do so on the 420). The 400 is already a slow option from International to the eastern suburbs, and that will only get worse when future road changes around the airport make the International to Domestic section even slower.

It's easy to get excited over the replacement of the 400 by the 350 and 390X (at least no one has yet called the 400 "iconic"), but to do so in the context of the very small number of passengers affected by the loss of a direct service to the Airport, whilst ignoring the significant gains in frequency and journey opportunities opened by those frequencies across the south eastern suburbs, is to lose sight of the bigger picture.

The loss of a single seat journey to Eastgardens for many current 400 passengers is an unfortunate consequence of creating a simpler more frequent network, with some consolation in getting a frequent to frequent connection between the 390X and 350 or 392. However given many of those passengers are closer to Bondi Junction, they are not deprived of one seat access to a major shopping and employment centre.

The real question is - have more people benefited overall compared to those who have "lost" in the new network (and importantly that answer should take into account not just those who current use public transport, but those who might now be tempted to shift to public transport due to a more frequent, more widely accessible network)? And of those who have "lost", what is the real impact?

If network changes are only measured in terms of those who "lose", without the nuance of how many that really is, and what their actual loss is compared to the benefits and with no focus on the overall benefits of the new network, then we end up with no network changes and improvements at all - and there are enough examples of that around to be a warning to all.

I for one am glad that the bus network changes have not been limited to only those routes directly affected by light rail. Otherwise we'd have seen no creation of the frequent network of 11 bus routes in the east/south east (plus similarly frequent L2, L3, T4 and T8), no frequency improvements to the 370, no introduction of a frequent route to replace the far less frequent 353, no frequency increase on the 309, no Green Square improvements, no general uplift of many local bus routes from 30 minute to 20 minute frequencies, no improvements in weekend frequencies to match (improved) weekdays, no increase in connections to stations such as Green Square, Mascot and Redfern and so on...
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Qantas94Heavy »

Technically route 356 still provides a direct service from Randwick to Eastgardens, though 356 will be less frequent (every 20 minutes) than the current 400.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by In Transit »

It does, although for most existing route 400 passengers the best option will still be the 390X and transferring to the 392.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Richard290 »

PDF Timetables for the new network from 05/12/2021 are now up on transportnsw.info

I note that route 304 is advertised as a 'loop service' even though its new Green Square terminus is not yet operational! The new temporary terminus for routes 304 and 320 will be on Joynton Ave near Hansard Street (adjacent to Gunyama Park Aquatic and Recreation Centre).
https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 211205.pdf
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by BanksfielderIdiot823 »

In Transit wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:09 pm I live with an easy connection to the 400, and prior to Covid I travelled overseas between 15 and 20 times a year. In a decade I think I caught the 400 from International only once rather than taking the train... which is reflected in the low patronage that I've always seen on the 400 passing through Domestic (most of whom are only travelling between Mascot and the Airport to avoid the station access fee - and will still be able to do so on the 420). The 400 is already a slow option from International to the eastern suburbs, and that will only get worse when future road changes around the airport make the International to Domestic section even slower.

It's easy to get excited over the replacement of the 400 by the 350 and 390X (at least no one has yet called the 400 "iconic"), but to do so in the context of the very small number of passengers affected by the loss of a direct service to the Airport, whilst ignoring the significant gains in frequency and journey opportunities opened by those frequencies across the south eastern suburbs, is to lose sight of the bigger picture.
No aspect of a route can be judged on the basis of only one trip. Prior to C0V1D, the 400 (and the 420 as well) would get a pretty decent loading at the airport, though it is very less packed than it was before the 400/420 split; and I would take that thing several times over a couple of weeks.

And by the way, the only 'iconic' 400 that ever existed was the long-hauling Metroline between Burwood and Bondi; the one that died in 2018.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by In Transit »

I agree - one persons travel pattern doesn’t reflect a route. However, 400 loadings from International were not that great, and the bulk of passengers who did board at both airport stops alighted at Mascot - these passengers retain the 420 (and 350 from Domestic), noting the 420’s frequency was increased not long ago.

Then there’s the upcoming road changes that will extend bus journey times between International and Domestic, and the train plus connections starts to look more attractive (even with the airport surcharge..).
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

New timetables for the changeover are appearing in bus stop panels. But none of them mention where the new services actually go, just a route number.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

I've seen plenty of buses sporting new destos over the weekend and this morning. 339 Central, 373 Museum, 374 Central, 374 via Cleveland St, 392X City and 394X City all in use.

On the bright side there is finally a 339 Circular Quay desto, some 9 months after the 339 was moved to Circular Quay from Gresham Street.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Saw a 370 today displaying GLEBE POINT
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Richard290 »

The new Transit Systems network map for region 6 is now available:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... 211205.pdf
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by stupid_girl »

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.905 ... 384!8i8192

There is a new bus stop right next to Royal Randwick light rail. It's a bity that only 339/X stops here. If 373/X and 374/X makes an additional stop, then it would be a convenient interchange from light rail to bus towards Coogee.
Last edited by stupid_girl on Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

There are old Metroline style signs attached to the top of the J-Poles and stickers affixed to the old metrobus toppers on the plinth signs at 390X stops in the limited stops section, advertising that the 390X stops there. Clearly it is intended that the 390X become the new high profile route much like the 400 once was.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by 1whoknows »

Presumably a whole bunch of someones will be busy today and tomorrow changing all the route markers over. No sign of any of it having been done yesterday.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

Hopefully a full audit has been done of what markers are actually up and can be removed, plenty are still there for long gone routes. Not holding my breath though, as when region 8 was recast, new markers were added with redundant ones left in place. Aside from those in the CBD, pretty much all bus stops has their new timetables in place on Friday.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by hornetfig »

stupid_girl wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:09 pm There is a new bus stop right next to Royal Randwick light rail. It's a bity that only 399/X stops here. If 373/X and 374/X makes an additional stop, then it would be a convenient interchange from light rail to bus towards Coogee.
339?

This section is really congested in peak so I can see drivers not wanting the delay and forced merge - lots of similarly positioned stops have been deleted or lost routes for the same reason in the past.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

I don't think it has been mentioned, but is it intended that the new 39xX services will use the Juniors interchange?

I noticed new "Safety Alerts" on the L3 service indicators about buses sharing the light rail tracks (here and at other stops). But the only information about bus services is the 400 becoming the 390X.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by stupid_girl »

hornetfig wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:47 pm
stupid_girl wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:09 pm There is a new bus stop right next to Royal Randwick light rail. It's a bity that only 399/X stops here. If 373/X and 374/X makes an additional stop, then it would be a convenient interchange from light rail to bus towards Coogee.
339?

This section is really congested in peak so I can see drivers not wanting the delay and forced merge - lots of similarly positioned stops have been deleted or lost routes for the same reason in the past.
Yes, 339.
boronia wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:53 pm I don't think it has been mentioned, but is it intended that the new 39xX services will use the Juniors interchange?
No for 392X
Yes for 394X,396X,397X
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