New Sydney and Outer Metro bus contracts (as from 2020)

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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Do routes belonging to a particular region ever go into another for the minority of it's length?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Swift wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:28 am Do routes belonging to a particular region ever go into another for the minority of it's length?
Would route 887 from SMBSC region 15 count as it goes to Wollongong witch is in the middle of the OSMBSC Illawarra network
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

NO - Routes belong to the operator and as such would not count in Wollongong.
Do routes belonging to a particular region ever go into another for the minority of it's length?
Yes many routes do but the same answer as for route 887 - they only count in the region which is operated by the allocated operator.
Region 4 routes from the Hills area operating to the CBD are a good example of that.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

So routes can be like tentacles reaching out to other regions but are counted only as a route in the originating region!
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Merc1107 »

While it's not really what Swift is getting at, I see no merit in routes ending at some arbitrary contractual boundary. If a route creeps into another region, it should be counted in the region it predominantly operates under.

If you have two contractors providing a service, the cheeky way to do this is by designating a route numbering convention in the backend. E.g. In Perth, where routes are provided by different contractors (let's take the 950), there are variations in the route number appearing on smart-card history that take into account the contractor's bus you boarded. I think it shows up as either 949 or 950, with the usual "T" or "F" to designate service direction.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

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Swift wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:56 pm So routes can be like tentacles reaching out to other regions but are counted only as a route in the originating region!
Can you provide a better alternative? Or should we totally ban routes from operating in more that one region? Passengers could not care less about this as long as the services provide what they want.
I remember there were big arguments about this when the routes from the Hills region 4 to the city first started and the final conclusion was that the current situation was the best.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

The main downside to this system is TfNSW's refusal to show "foreign" routes in the region maps.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

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I would agree with that.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:31 pm The main downside to this system is TfNSW's refusal to show "foreign" routes in the region maps.
They could put region no. in brackets or use footnotes.
Seems a recipe for making bus travel less attractive, something that defeats the goal.

Another case of operational convenience taking priority over (would be) passenger amenity, continuing to make the bus network fine for regulars, but less user friendly for new and occasional uses.
Last edited by Swift on Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Merc1107 »

boronia wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:31 pm The main downside to this system is TfNSW's refusal to show "foreign" routes in the region maps.
This practice is anti-competitive, which is somewhat ironic in the context of a big push for competition (i.e. privatisation) in the bus industry.

What, exactly, is the benefit of producing "Region specific" maps that exclude services from elsewhere that happen to pass through? Why not produce a map for specific geographic areas and include all the routes?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Merc1107 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:34 pm

What, exactly, is the benefit of producing "Region specific" maps that exclude services from elsewhere that happen to pass through? Why not produce a map for specific geographic areas and include all the routes?
Operational convenience.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

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Merc1107 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:34 pm This practice is anti-competitive, which is somewhat ironic in the context of a big push for competition (i.e. privatisation) in the bus industry.

What, exactly, is the benefit of producing "Region specific" maps that exclude services from elsewhere that happen to pass through? Why not produce a map for specific geographic areas and include all the routes?
Once the contracts have been allocated, there is no real competition between the various operators as far as services are concerned so I think that is irrelevant.
Specific geographic maps may as well be region maps as long as they include all services operating in or through each region.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

Swift wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:39 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:34 pm

What, exactly, is the benefit of producing "Region specific" maps that exclude services from elsewhere that happen to pass through? Why not produce a map for specific geographic areas and include all the routes?
Operational convenience.
Individual operators' convenience. It seems too hard for someone in TfNSW to match up the individual maps.

The result is possible passenger inconvenience.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote: Or should we totally ban routes from operating in more that one region? Passengers could not care less about this as long as the services provide what they want.
Happened in recent years with busy cross regional routes (340, 343, 400, 430) split and various other curtailed for operational convenience rather than reflecting passenger wants with the 370 to follow.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by In Transit »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:24 pm
Fleet Lists wrote: Or should we totally ban routes from operating in more that one region? Passengers could not care less about this as long as the services provide what they want.
Happened in recent years with busy cross regional routes (340, 343, 400, 430) split and various other curtailed for operational convenience rather than reflecting passenger wants with the 370 to follow.
The only place I've seen these changes described as "for operational convenience" has been on here. The more times it gets repeated the more it gets accepted as fact.

Lets look at these routes:
340 - the City-Chatswood end largely duplicated the 333, and improvements to the 333 when the 340 was removed has seen capacity (and demand) likely equalised on either side of Bondi Junction much of the time. On my many trips on the 340 I saw very few passengers remain on board across the city.
343 - there is a huge difference in patronage north and south of the City (note the northern section now doesn't even go to the City off peak, and consolidating most Willoughby-City passengers on the 340's replacement - the 120 - has greatly improved frequency and span of hours on it).
400 - Whilst the original split does seem more related to the separation of Region 6 from STA, this route was already far too long for reliability, efficiency and effectiveness. Loadings were also not even along its full route, and that even applied to the remaining 400 - look at the proposed region 9 network where that's been separated into two different routes again.
430 - Similar story again with uneven patronage north and south of the City. This probably had the most useful cross-CBD service of all the routes mentioned, but splitting it into separate routes allowed the artics to be concentrated on the northern section where they are needed (they were wasted between the City and Sydenham, much as the 340's artics were wasted whilst running between the City and Bondi Junction), and enabled better frequency and capacity on the new 100 which absorbed both the 340 and other local Mosman trips.
370 - The proposed network showed this separated into two routes - a remaining 370 and a new route for the stub to Leichhardt. The "new" 370 is described as a frequent route, which would be the second frequency upgrade in about 3 years for the 370, and hard to justify all the way through to Leichhardt - that last leg is the least busy of the whole route. As a route which has always suffered from reliability issues, like the 400, shortening the route can only help.

Of course, there must be some efficiency benefits from splitting these routes once STA's regions are completely broken up, but that's not a bad thing either - and to me its clear that it's not the only benefit. Equally, there's been some loss of single seat journeys for a minority of passengers, and some useful links now require interchange.

However each of those routes has been, in whole or in part, replaced by one of the far more frequent and higher capacity new Frequent routes. Surely that's what the network should be aiming for - more frequency, more capacity, more simplicity, more journey opportunities though connectivity?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

Merc1107 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:34 pm This practice is anti-competitive, which is somewhat ironic in the context of a big push for competition (i.e. privatisation) in the bus industry.
Hard to factor in competition in this context when TfNSW gets the income, regardless of operator.

Competition comes from operators bidding to get the contracts.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by In Transit »

boronia wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:15 pm
Swift wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:39 pm

Operational convenience.
Individual operators' convenience. It seems too hard for someone in TfNSW to match up the individual maps.

The result is possible passenger inconvenience.
I couldn't agree more. This has been a longstanding issue and it's been astounding that it's lasted for so long. However there is a glimmer of hope... look at the maps introduced in December and January for Regions 7 and 8, which show all operators and routes in the area covered by the map, and then again repeated in the maps for the Region 9 consultation earlier this year. Let's hope these aren't an isolated initiative.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by In Transit »

Swift wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:29 pm
boronia wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:31 pm The main downside to this system is TfNSW's refusal to show "foreign" routes in the region maps.
They could put region no. in brackets or use footnotes.
Seems a recipe for making bus travel less attractive, something that defeats the goal.

Another case of operational convenience taking priority over (would be) passenger amenity, continuing to make the bus network fine for regulars, but less user friendly for new and occasional uses.
"Operational convenience" is getting thrown around as a catch phrase on this page to the point its meaning has been lost. This isn't operational convenience, it's a combination of a failure to appreciate the importance of clear information that is focused on passenger's needs, and an overall lack of focus on the bus mode. That's even worse than the pursuit of "operational convenience."

Its interesting reading comments about routes and regions. Routes are allocated to regions for the measurement of costs, KPI's, other measures, administration and contracts. It really shouldn't have any bearing on the customer experience, nor any relevance for the customer or dictate service planning, but simply be a back office function for administrative purposes. Of course, it does affect passengers in Sydney for some things (such as the maps) but that's a continuation of long term poor Sydney practices. The long term trajectory is heading in the right direction, but it's a game of snakes and ladders.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

In Transit wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:53 pm
Swift wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:29 pm

They could put region no. in brackets or use footnotes.
Seems a recipe for making bus travel less attractive, something that defeats the goal.

Another case of operational convenience taking priority over (would be) passenger amenity, continuing to make the bus network fine for regulars, but less user friendly for new and occasional uses.
"Operational convenience" is getting thrown around as a catch phrase on this page to the point its meaning has been lost. This isn't operational convenience, it's a combination of a failure to appreciate the importance of clear information that is focused on passenger's needs, and an overall lack of focus on the bus mode. That's even worse than the pursuit of "operational convenience."

Its interesting reading comments about routes and regions. Routes are allocated to regions for the measurement of costs, KPI's, other measures, administration and contracts. It really shouldn't have any bearing on the customer experience, nor any relevance for the customer or dictate service planning, but simply be a back office function for administrative purposes. Of course, it does affect passengers in Sydney for some things (such as the maps) but that's a continuation of long term poor Sydney practices. The long term trajectory is heading in the right direction, but it's a game of snakes and ladders.
I agree on your points about the mess that requires gradual steps to overcome. I'm not saying the apparent cliche of operational convenience as the only explanation. I want to explore any other rationale for the set up. It seems to have weaknesses like demarcation of information based on a man made border.
Can and will this deficiency likely be sorted out?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by J_Busworth »

Even when they have modified the networks in more recent times to remove some of the more notable cross regional routes operated by STA, there have still been many an occasion where cross-regional routes have remained in one form or another. There are still the 137, 144 and 160X from Region 8 that all go to Chatswood in Region 7. Region 9 will still have all of the 352, 355 and 370 running through Newtown in Region 6.

What the new networks have done is clearly define which routes belong to each region based on what depot they are operated out of, but left where the regions actually exist geographically slightly blurred. Look at the Botany Road corridor, which is on the border between R6 and R9 and where you have R6 routes like the 320, 348 and 420 mixing in with R9 routes like the 309, 370 and 400. A similar story can be seen right across Sydney.

I think this is the best option but in order for it to be most effective, network maps should be clearly geographically based and include all routes in that geographic region. It's crazy that half of the Botany Road routes are on one map and half on another and that is never going to lead to the best outcomes for customers. Hopefully the new R7, 8 and 9 maps are a way of the future as they significantly improve on operator specific maps.

There are a few instances where routes have likely been split for 'operational convenience', however these would fall into the minority of the routes cut since 2017. The 400 spilt removing the direct connection from Rockdale through to the East (Bondi Jn - Rockdale was the proposed 400 listed in the first release of those 2018 changes, before it was quickly rectified to the Airport) and the proposed 370 spilt (which I understand had some people west of Sydney Uni upset that they would lose their direct connection to Newtown and UNSW) are perhaps the most clear examples of splits for operational convenience. Others like the 340, 343 and 430 made more sense in their specific contexts.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

In Transit wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:53 pm
"Operational convenience" is getting thrown around as a catch phrase on this page to the point its meaning has been lost. This isn't operational convenience, it's a combination of a failure to appreciate the importance of clear information that is focused on passenger's needs, and an overall lack of focus on the bus mode. That's even worse than the pursuit of "operational convenience."
What about "agency convenience" then? ;)

Coming from the days when there was only a DGT overall map of government bus services and for the privates you were lucky to get even a timetable map, I can see that the task of producing a single bus route map for a city as large as Sydney is a difficult one and ultimately user-unfriendly. However, I like the Perth approach where there is a single map but it's subdivided into larger-scale sub-maps (rather like a street directory) where you can look at individual sectors more easily. The only difficulty is where the maps join but at least you can see all operators within any sector.

Here is a fascinating early effort by a local council at a regional map of bus routes, from Blacktown City archives. It's not quite Clancy of the Overflow's "thumbnail dipped in tar", but not far removed. It's obviously an internal draft, not sure if it went public. You'll need to use the magnifier to see the routes and the list of routes at top right.

https://blacktownmemories.recollect.net ... 8c52ed5a8c
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Linto63 »

Don't think it's agency convenience, it's just slackness. Recall having a 1980s Urban Transit Authority produced fold up map that showed all Sydney bus routes, both government and private. Would have been at a fairly high level though.

Another irritation is that at stops where timetables are displayed, sometimes there are still separate ones for each operator. Obviously was the way it had to be when each operator produced their own timetables, but this has been a centralised TfNSW function for many years, surely it can't be that hard. Perhaps we should just be grateful that timetables are displayed at all, given that they have been deemed unnecessary at railway stations.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by iamthouth »

Network maps are produced by the operators. Thus, they include the routes they operate, as it is their map. If TfNSW specified that all routes had to be included, they would be. Some operators used to include neighbouring bus routes, but they have since been removed when the map style changed.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

Yes, produced by the operators, which seems to be the let-down here. It seems ludicrous that there can be a bus route going past your home, but it doesn't show up on a local bus services map because it is operated by an "out-of-region" provider.

At least people who have access to modern tech can get other info on services. But sometimes, nothing is easier than looking at a map to plan certain types of travel.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

Looking at a map is also a good way to study bus services in general. It seems to me that the task of issuing maps should lie with TfNSW, not operators.
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