New Sydney and Outer Metro bus contracts (as from 2020)

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rogf24
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by rogf24 »

Swift wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:34 pm Similar situation, did a 292 to Marsfield, no one ever got on after Macquarie Uni in the years I had done it, but in this situation, I did the trip but this girl I noticed sitting at a stop on Epping Rd didn't signal me and I presumed as usual, an Epping passenger. After finishing and running special toward the shed, I come across her walking the other way looking up at me with a cross look on her face.
Her own fault this time. One of those customers who thinks the drivers are psychic.
This is actually why I like the way it's generally done in Melbourne. It can slow things down, but drivers slow down at every stop where there is someone, no need to wave.
Geo101
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Geo101 »

[/quote]
Yes, this. They have a duty to provide the service as advertised. Leaving somebody stranded near the end of a route is irresponsible and dangerous.
[/quote]

I had a bit of a surreal experience a few weeks back (route 525).

I was busily reading the news on my mobile phone and glanced up as the bus stopped and let off the only other passenger onboard. Shortly after taking off again, all the lights went out, and at the next corner (Victoria Rd) the bus turned right towards the city instead of left towards Parramatta.

Sensing something was up, I walked down to the driver (he was surprised to see me) and he said that the service was terminated, and I needed to get off next stop!! He insisted that he had called this out, but I was obviously in dream land or he didn't see me or he didn't call out loud enough?

Good thing I wasn't having a nap, who knows where I might have ended up!!
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

rogf24 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:22 pm
Swift wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:34 pm Similar situation, did a 292 to Marsfield, no one ever got on after Macquarie Uni in the years I had done it, but in this situation, I did the trip but this girl I noticed sitting at a stop on Epping Rd didn't signal me and I presumed as usual, an Epping passenger. After finishing and running special toward the shed, I come across her walking the other way looking up at me with a cross look on her face.
Her own fault this time. One of those customers who thinks the drivers are psychic.
This is actually why I like the way it's generally done in Melbourne. It can slow things down, but drivers slow down at every stop where there is someone, no need to wave.
That has merit. You hope some will wave you off out of courtesy though.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

What system is better the DMT one number multiple destination 1925 route network and bus licensing system that was in use by all private operators until the government started to split the destinations into individual routes from the early 80s or this current Transport For NSW contract tendering system it would be interesting to see what would happen if the DMT system was still in use today
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by stupid_girl »

ACM wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:40 am There may be ONE reason to terminate a run short. Say you're running a 156 up to Mccars Creek. Say you're doing the 1602 out of Mona Vale. Due to traffic/schoolkids/etc, you're running about 8 minutes late. Your last passenger gets off a Church Point wharf. Your next run is the 1726 154X out of Milsons Point, a very popular run. You could curtail your 156, highball to the 154X as leave on or close to time, OR do it properly, then drive down to Milsons Point, by which time the bus after you has left and you might as well cancel your run. Which one is worse?
I think the decision should be made by OCC rather than the bus driver. The OCC has visibility of other buses and may be able to arrange a standby bus if conditions warrant.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by ACM »

stupid_girl wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:50 pm
ACM wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:40 am There may be ONE reason to terminate a run short. Say you're running a 156 up to Mccars Creek. Say you're doing the 1602 out of Mona Vale. Due to traffic/schoolkids/etc, you're running about 8 minutes late. Your last passenger gets off a Church Point wharf. Your next run is the 1726 154X out of Milsons Point, a very popular run. You could curtail your 156, highball to the 154X as leave on or close to time, OR do it properly, then drive down to Milsons Point, by which time the bus after you has left and you might as well cancel your run. Which one is worse?
I think the decision should be made by OCC rather than the bus driver. The OCC has visibility of other buses and may be able to arrange a standby bus if conditions warrant.
One trick of drivers used to be this - arrive six minutes late for a run, send a request to talk to OCC, wait for a response (could take up to an hour - one guy once got called back 4 hours later, when he'd forgotten what he called for) - with the old cb-style radio, you could keep driving - once they introduced those telephone-style digital equipment, the convention changed to 'stop and wait'. Hence by the time they called you back, you'd be best part of 30 min late and the run gets cancelled.

As someone else put it, the day you cut the run short is the day someone wants to use it, so never cut a run short. So, agreed, just keep going and call to inform OCC is the best bet.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Stu »

The indiscriminate and unofficial practice of terminating a trip prior to reaching the terminus took a number of years for STA to gain control of and manage through education.
- The introduction of PTIPS in 2011 displayed real time data and recorded data of the above behaviour.
- 2013 contract renewal.
- Accountability to TfNSW. Completing the trip all the way to the terminus is an actual KPI in its own right.
- Education through internal communication and through the training of new trainee staff.

It would appear that the practice of unofficially terminating trips prior to reaching the terminus has crept back into the attention of TfNSW and also now management at KDNB. This behaviour must have had a resurgence, went unchecked and then continued over to the new operator.

The catalyst for this would have been when the NSW State Government announced that STA would be franchised over a period of years, morale was already low prior to this announcement and morale continued to drop as the franchising announcement was fast transforming into a more realistic future not far away as the awarding of tenders were each announced individually throughout 2021. The ‘sinking ship syndrome’ became rife at STA, accountability for all levels of the workforce at STA began to quickly disappear.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Gusbus »

People seem to be overlooking the fact that driver's aren't the only reason a bus may fail to complete a trip, according to the OSD system. There are numerous possible data errors, sometimes due to the fault of the operator poorly managing data and sometimes due to a technology fault on the part of the BDC or PTIPS. Temporary relocations of terminal stops due to road or construction works (even by just 30 metres) can also cause trips to become incomplete through no fault of the driver.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Merc1107 »

While that's true - with the extent of tracking onboard buses, it should be easy enough to ascertain if the bus did get very near to the terminus or not. Failing that, checking CCTV...
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Noel »

Merc1107 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:30 am While that's true - with the extent of tracking onboard buses, it should be easy enough to ascertain if the bus did get very near to the terminus or not. Failing that, checking CCTV...
That's what they're trying to get away from.

For every trip that gets "close enough" requires someone to provide evidence of that, which costs money and takes time.

An example of an "incomplete trip" is on route 100 at Taronga Zoo, if the bus does not enter the terminal and turn around it is considered as not operating to the last stop, despite the fact the terminal may be taken up by multiple buses laying up and there is a zone outside for the bus to end in.

It's not as clear cut as drivers cutting the trip short as Gusbus pointed out.

There is also many other examples. Currently, school trips do not get the same recover time as every other trip. There was numerous shifts out of Brookvale depot that would have you terminating at Mona Vale B-line on the out with a school trip and 1 minute later starting on the in on a trip back south. With the tight running on school trips especially, a lot of drivers would turn left into Pittwater Rd (prior to Mona Vale B-Line), right at Park St then right into Barrenjoey and terminate and begin the next trip on time. Once again, this is considered an incomplete trip even though it went to Mona Vale Junction.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by pgt »

Noel wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:09 pmFor every trip that gets "close enough" requires someone to provide evidence of that, which costs money and takes time.

An example of an "incomplete trip" is on route 100 at Taronga Zoo, if the bus does not enter the terminal and turn around it is considered as not operating to the last stop, despite the fact the terminal may be taken up by multiple buses laying up and there is a zone outside for the bus to end in.

It's not as clear cut as drivers cutting the trip short as Gusbus pointed out.
One that irked me because the driver kept doing it regularly, and probably similar to the route 100 example, was a 428 outbound to Canterbury, where the driver would "terminate" the service on Canterbury Road instead of actually turning into Broughton Street to terminate outside Canterbury Station.
If you look at Google Maps said stop shows up as "Canterbury Road at Tincombe St" (219377), though I'm not sure the 428 even stopped there at all before (think back 20-25 years).

I suspected it was because the driver's next run might have been to run special to, say, Campsie or even return to the depot which would have been an inconvenience purely to the driver if he had to turn off Canterbury Road just for that final stop.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Special_K »

Great example pgt.

Some Kingsgrove drivers used to cut out last trips such as the short working 412 from Campsie back to Kingsgrove Depot. One guy was even multi dipping a pension ticket a number of times to "prove" that the trip did operate, The trouble was he had issued the ticket much earlier in the day and it was dipped several times during the shift.Also, the fact that the bus was fueled in the yard at a time before it was due to leave Campsie was also a giveaway.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Aurora »

Would a rule stating the trip must reach at least the second last stop on the route resolve most of the issues described above (provided there is no remaining passengers onboard and no one wishing to get on at said stop)?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

Presumably these "infringements" are detected by computer software, so it might be difficult to program in "exceptions" for some trips?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

New Busways North West timetable for route 501 from 9 January is now available https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 220109.pdf
I have not looked for others but I suspect they are also available.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by pgt »

Fleet Lists wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:18 pm New Busways North West timetable for route 501 from 9 January is now available https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 220109.pdf
I have not looked for others but I suspect they are also available.
I've seen the "post 9th Jan" references when you search for a route/timetable, and I've only picked route 252 out of the list (since it's relevant to me) but probably safe to say that most if not all are there.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by ffgm050 »

Noel wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:09 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:30 am While that's true - with the extent of tracking onboard buses, it should be easy enough to ascertain if the bus did get very near to the terminus or not. Failing that, checking CCTV...
That's what they're trying to get away from.

For every trip that gets "close enough" requires someone to provide evidence of that, which costs money and takes time.

An example of an "incomplete trip" is on route 100 at Taronga Zoo, if the bus does not enter the terminal and turn around it is considered as not operating to the last stop, despite the fact the terminal may be taken up by multiple buses laying up and there is a zone outside for the bus to end in.

It's not as clear cut as drivers cutting the trip short as Gusbus pointed out.

There is also many other examples. Currently, school trips do not get the same recover time as every other trip. There was numerous shifts out of Brookvale depot that would have you terminating at Mona Vale B-line on the out with a school trip and 1 minute later starting on the in on a trip back south. With the tight running on school trips especially, a lot of drivers would turn left into Pittwater Rd (prior to Mona Vale B-Line), right at Park St then right into Barrenjoey and terminate and begin the next trip on time. Once again, this is considered an incomplete trip even though it went to Mona Vale Junction.

E65 Wynyard to South Curl Curl that does the same thing. Some services that come down Harbord Roaf, if the driver knows there is no one on board head back to depot than continue to its terminus.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

With big manager watching thanks to these devices, the days of reasonable driver discretion are fast disappearing, and draining any joy the job had. That to me is retrograde, not progress.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

Let us record the big event today. Region 7 now operated by Busways.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

I wonder if a lot of the central coast based M drivers will move to Kincumber or Wyong, unless the pax are that bad?
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Re: New bus contracts

Post by Linto63 »

If Willoughby drivers are on a better EBA than their colleagues on the Central Coast, probably not.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by swtt »

With all ex STA regions having received significant reforms to routes in the past 12 months (in preparation for handover to new operators or otherwise), which would be the next ones up for a review and reorganisation of bus routes?

There's been some significant frequency increases across those four regions, plus Region 4 (Hillsbus), but not much elsewhere. Many X routes have also since mushroomed up, but again seemingly limited to those five regions.

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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Bus 400 »

I don't think it's been covered previously. But I wonder who gets the massive State Transit tow truck?

I'm assuming Region 9 are left with it now. But I'm sure TfNSW Traffic Management would be best beneficial.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by gilberations »

swtt wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:50 pm With all ex STA regions having received significant reforms to routes in the past 12 months (in preparation for handover to new operators or otherwise), which would be the next ones up for a review and reorganisation of bus routes?

There's been some significant frequency increases across those four regions, plus Region 4 (Hillsbus), but not much elsewhere. Many X routes have also since mushroomed up, but again seemingly limited to those five regions.

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I would expect that cdc and busways would probably be putting together network review proposals for their new region 1 and 4 bids, taking into account duplications of routes, new permanent infrastructure (the two new rail lines) and new housing developments, taking Opal data and company experience into account
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

Bus 400 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:59 pm I don't think it's been covered previously. But I wonder who gets the massive State Transit tow truck?

I'm assuming Region 9 are left with it now. But I'm sure TfNSW Traffic Management would be best beneficial.
It will be cut into four parts and distributed fairly. ;)
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