New Sydney and Outer Metro bus contracts (as from 2020)

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moa999
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by moa999 »

Commences 3 April 2022, so obviously waiting till any blowback from the new timetable dissipates.

136 new zero emissions vehicles (no timeframe given) versus 500+ buses in the region.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

My various STA vids I've done in the east will be greatly appreciated in the coming years.
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Linto63
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Linto63 »

moa999 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:06 pm136 new zero emissions vehicles (no timeframe given) versus 500+ buses in the region.
On par with regions 7 and 8 that have commitments to replace about one-third of their fleets over eight years. If the all electric by 2030 plan is still being pursued, extra purchases over these will have to be over and above.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Sorry but in my experience I’ve found seemingly since the privatisation was announced, State Transits quality of service has just been gradually run into the ground, as if it doesn’t matter anymore. I’ve regularly seen things like 400’s running 10 minutes early, late at night (not exaggerating) which screw you over when the next ones in 30 mins or an hour, buses sitting at termini stops meant to be starting but for whatever reason they choose to start 5 minutes late (yes I can see on NextThere which bus is yours and is meant to start). Once recently, complete cherry on top, I had a driver who just didn’t bother picking up at the termini stop but just drove straight ahead and proceeded to the next stop, completely ignoring the 7 or so people who were waiting (all tracked on NextThere as well). I’m really fed up of this “lack of care” I’ve seen, Constance said complaints are up yeah well I’d say my complaints for sure are up, I’d say bring on the new operator I’m sure they’ll do a far better job
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:50 pm Sorry but in my experience I’ve found seemingly since the privatisation was announced, State Transits quality of service has just been gradually run into the ground, as if it doesn’t matter anymore. I’ve regularly seen things like 400’s running 10 minutes early, late at night (not exaggerating) which screw you over when the next ones in 30 mins or an hour, buses sitting at termini stops meant to be starting but for whatever reason they choose to start 5 minutes late (yes I can see on NextThere which bus is yours and is meant to start). Once recently, complete cherry on top, I had a driver who just didn’t bother picking up at the termini stop but just drove straight ahead and proceeded to the next stop, completely ignoring the 7 or so people who were waiting (all tracked on NextThere as well). I’m really fed up of this “lack of care” I’ve seen, Constance said complaints are up yeah well I’d say my complaints for sure are up, I’d say bring on the new operator I’m sure they’ll do a far better job
You mean there was a quality of service somewhere along the way? I've used them since DGT days and I don't remember such a phenomenon. Very many nice individual drivers along the way of course, as in any organisation, and your dedication is appreciated, but the operation as a whole has been moribund for decades. Then also the failure to grow patronage in spite of the large population growth of the service area. Will pass unmourned by me.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Aurora »

I don’t understand the focus on electric buses with new contracts when the funding comes from the government anyway, regardless of who gains the contract.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

Aurora wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:40 pm I don’t understand the focus on electric buses with new contracts when the funding comes from the government anyway, regardless of who gains the contract.
Just a bit of extra publicity hype not meaning anything much specific in the long term. I assume Transdev will kick the ball off with the ten CD Elements that have already been ordered for STA.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:30 pm
Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:50 pm Sorry but in my experience I’ve found seemingly since the privatisation was announced, State Transits quality of service has just been gradually run into the ground, as if it doesn’t matter anymore. I’ve regularly seen things like 400’s running 10 minutes early, late at night (not exaggerating) which screw you over when the next ones in 30 mins or an hour, buses sitting at termini stops meant to be starting but for whatever reason they choose to start 5 minutes late (yes I can see on NextThere which bus is yours and is meant to start). Once recently, complete cherry on top, I had a driver who just didn’t bother picking up at the termini stop but just drove straight ahead and proceeded to the next stop, completely ignoring the 7 or so people who were waiting (all tracked on NextThere as well). I’m really fed up of this “lack of care” I’ve seen, Constance said complaints are up yeah well I’d say my complaints for sure are up, I’d say bring on the new operator I’m sure they’ll do a far better job
You mean there was a quality of service somewhere along the way? I've used them since DGT days and I don't remember such a phenomenon. Very many nice individual drivers along the way of course, as in any organisation, and your dedication is appreciated, but the operation as a whole has been moribund for decades. Then also the failure to grow patronage in spite of the large population growth of the service area. Will pass unmourned by me.
The trouble here is, unless the overseeing Government body sets exacting standards, you will simply transition from a sort of Government failure, to a mix of Government, and Market Failure. I seem to recall in Victoria, the Government had to step in and procure new buses for an operator who had quite evidently ran things into the ground... Hmmmm, quite a great example of how wonderful the free market is!
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:26 pm
The trouble here is, unless the overseeing Government body sets exacting standards, you will simply transition from a sort of Government failure, to a mix of Government, and Market Failure. I seem to recall in Victoria, the Government had to step in and procure new buses for an operator who had quite evidently ran things into the ground... Hmmmm, quite a great example of how wonderful the free market is!
I'm not expecting miracles. Transdev and John Holland will be an interesting new combination, we'll see how it goes.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

The STA will be gone within 6 months with regions 7 and 9 being franchised/privatised in the coming months. They now have to deal with the other 10 bus contracts witch would be close to being up for tender for the next 8 year contracts
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

Yes discussed in this thread some time ago - for details see https://infrastructurepipeline.org/proj ... -contracts
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

rogf24 wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:34 am KD NB is off to a good start.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity ... 60064-D8He
As per the norm, only sorry that they got caught out, if it was not caught out it would be "business as usual".

And nothing of "The manger in question has been stood down pending an internal investigation". But why bother with that too? The manager in question will also say they were having a rough day and they said something that they shouldn't have and that's it, case closed. No repercussions even through it was also signed off with the company letterhead putting the companies reputation at jeopardy.

Definitely not professional and very poor behavior and to be frank, I doubt this is the only issue, there is probably other issues that haven't been made public yet and it is now only a matter of time before the rest of the public finds out and it comes to bite the operators in the backside.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Merc1107 »

This is but the tip of the iceberg with some of these companies, unfortunately.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Yet if you speak your mind to a passenger, guess what?
One rule for tyrant bus managers and another entirely for the real important employees.

This news doesn't bode well for this privatisation model. The old school family run small to medium private bus operator where good drivers are valued, not these corporations, were the best model of all.

This is the worst of both worlds of private and government run buses.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by ACM »

rogf24 wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:34 am KD NB is off to a good start.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity ... 60064-D8He
Having read this, it seems alarming that one depot manages to skip so many runs. Maybe it's the old Public Sector "i get paid either way" attitude?
It seems strange for M/U/W/T/F shifts to be a problem at this time of year, given how they are mostly associated with school runs (at least in my experience).
The whole 'contact OCC' thing seems rather odd/bad. This implies that Ivan (& fellow depot managers) used to look after their drivers directly, whereas now it all has to go through the Operations Control Centre. The competency of this group depends upon the organisation, and they can often be overstreched, geographically illiterate & judgemental. If a passenger has a medical emergency, wouldn't be better to contact the emergency services first and then give OCC the heads up, rather than playing Chinese whispers. MV depot accounts for 123 buses - Ivan and his mates would be kept sufficiently busy managing that lot.
The biggest villain in the courtroom is Kelios-Downer, for punching down to middle level managers and drivers. Instead of being judgemental, aggressive & punitive (e.g. five against Ivan), they should have said had a phone call, saying 'what the f--k is happening here - could you make it stop happening please?'

I'll agree with Swift that things were/would be a lot better in the days of small-mid size operators, who made sure timetables were easy to read & (at least for the mostpart) the passengers' needs were net. There's been enough industrial action in Sydney lately. If management are going to give the frontline staff the middle finger for making in-the-moment decisions and not ALWAYS getting it right, the unions will probably have a lot to say about it.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Merc1107 »

ACM wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:35 pm Having read this, it seems alarming that one depot manages to skip so many runs. Maybe it's the old Public Sector "i get paid either way" attitude?
To be quite honest, the whole practice of cutting services short is really quite disappointing (the exception should be set-down only services, which should terminate when the last passenger alights - that's reasonable); if you love your job so much that you're always looking for a way out of doing it right, perhaps it's time to find a new one? The other issue is route timings, if drivers are forever cutting their trips short, there's a possibility it will skew punctuality data and result in less time being allocated for trips over time.

It certainly suggests that, up to this point, there has been a general lack of accountability of drivers, but also those managing them. Was this just a symptom of STA in its dying breaths, or a long-standing issue that was never resolved?
ACM wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:35 pm The whole 'contact OCC' thing seems rather odd/bad. This implies that Ivan (& fellow depot managers) used to look after their drivers directly, whereas now it all has to go through the Operations Control Centre.
This sort of arrangement is very much like watching "Are You Being Served?", where Mr. Grainger, Mr. Humphries and Mr. Lucas are all summoned as each delegates a problem to their immediate subordinate (or vice-versa). By reporting through OCC, the process of reporting legitimate issues is stalled and can result in over-reporting of insignificant issues (e.g. "I missed a passenger", "I missed a turn", "there's a leaf on the road, be careful!" etc). It doesn't take many drivers reporting such nit-picky issues before the radios are congested, the controllers overworked and the real issues ignored.
ACM wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:35 pm The biggest villain in the courtroom is Kelios-Downer, for punching down to middle level managers and drivers. Instead of being judgemental, aggressive & punitive (e.g. five against Ivan), they should have said had a phone call, saying 'what the f--k is happening here - could you make it stop happening please?'
A bit of a whodunnit - unfortunately we don't have any information about which level of management is meant to be monitoring and enforcing compliance here. In my opinion, each depot should be absolutely certain they're holding up their end of the bargain, without it having to be told by management higher up.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Aurora »

I would say it sounds like a hangover from public sector running. The lack of accountability is one of the reasons for operational privatisation as everything gets bogged down in bureaucracy and protectionism.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:51 pm
It certainly suggests that, up to this point, there has been a general lack of accountability of drivers, but also those managing them. Was this just a symptom of STA in its dying breaths, or a long-standing issue that was never resolved?
I remember years ago in the late 1990s there were certain minor runs drivers would skip to extend their break. They were very low to nil patronage runs that hardly ever had people on them. I chose to do them anyway and sure enough, not a soul ever got on.
BUT there was a certain run where in a few years driving, no one had ever boarded from a certain point and so I took a short cut to the terminus before starting the next trip and as I passed a stop that was on this portion I had skipped earlier, lo and behold there was a group of youngsters sitting on the grass verge waiting with a despondent look on their faces. They really didn't have very far to walk though and it was all down hill!
ACM wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:35 pm I'll agree with Swift that things were/would be a lot better in the days of small-mid size operators, who made sure timetables were easy to read & (at least for the mostpart) the passengers' needs were met.
I recall a story I was told where management actually told off a complaining passenger on behalf of a driver before slamming down the phone.

I wonder if these new contractors default to taking the customer's side? I know of one operating west of the city that don't seem to, going by my own experience as the complainant! This can be a good and bad thing!
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by ACM »

There may be ONE reason to terminate a run short. Say you're running a 156 up to Mccars Creek. Say you're doing the 1602 out of Mona Vale. Due to traffic/schoolkids/etc, you're running about 8 minutes late. Your last passenger gets off a Church Point wharf. Your next run is the 1726 154X out of Milsons Point, a very popular run. You could curtail your 156, highball to the 154X as leave on or close to time, OR do it properly, then drive down to Milsons Point, by which time the bus after you has left and you might as well cancel your run. Which one is worse?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by thunderbird »

I’ve been left high and dry on bus routes like 156 where the driver has obviously made an educated guess that nobody else will be getting on during the latter part of the trip and has turned around.

In theory I have nothing wrong with what you’re suggesting, but the service should be advertised as “set down only” from a specific point. This does seem to be no longer a way of scheduling services, but there used to be a few in the Sutherland Shire like that (no longer)
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

"Murphy's Law" states that on the day you decide to cut a run short "because no one ever catches a bus here", there will be a passenger who wants to catch it.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Similar situation, did a 292 to Marsfield, no one ever got on after Macquarie Uni in the years I had done it, but in this situation, I did the trip but this girl I noticed sitting at a stop on Epping Rd didn't signal me and I presumed as usual, an Epping passenger. After finishing and running special toward the shed, I come across her walking the other way looking up at me with a cross look on her face.
Her own fault this time. One of those customers who thinks the drivers are psychic.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

thunderbird wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:23 pm I’ve been left high and dry on bus routes like 156 where the driver has obviously made an educated guess that nobody else will be getting on during the latter part of the trip and has turned around.
Yes, this. They have a duty to provide the service as advertised. Leaving somebody stranded near the end of a route is irresponsible and dangerous.
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