NSW High Speed Rail... On Again Off Again

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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Swift »

No point reinventing the wheel, it in this case, discarding it.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

matthewg wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:08 pm
eddy wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:47 pm I know there will be resistance in the current like overhead wires and also in the air resistance but zero maintenance and speed is the reason they did not want wheels.

If the single $60b tunnel is reduced to a breathable 11psi it will go 700 km/h and anything that cannot beat a truck by 8 hours will not get palletised freight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwF-STGtfE
Maglev guideways are not maintenance-free. Magnetic levitation is not without power costs either. The Japanese maglev trains 'land' at low speed, so have aircraft tyres that need careful maintenance checks.

The German Transrapid test track had an extremely nasty accident when they dispatched a test train full of tourists on a joy ride and then collided with the maintenance trolley that had not returned to the depot. Every morning the maintenance trolley did the route to ensure nothing had fallen on the track overnight.

The Japanese system is quite expensive too, due to the need to run with a higher levitation gap to make it earthquake resistant. The Transrapid system the Chinese licensed runs a LOT closer to the guideway and that operating gap wasn't considered safe in earthquake-prone Japan.

On either system, if there is a disturbance that causes the train to contact the track at speed., that could be nasty. From memory, Transrapid used active levitation control and levitate at all times. If the train contacts the guideway for any reason, badness. The landing gear on the Japanese trains probably wouldn't cope with a 700km/hr landing either.

There is also the point you can order 'conventional HSR' trains from a handful of manufacturers (Alstom, Siemens, CRRC, etc) and they are broadly interoperable. Your 2nd batch of trains could come from a different builder.

Once you commit to a maglev route, you are forever locked to that vendor.

(Single sourcing is a pet hate of mine, others don't care about being beholden to a single vendor).
I accept nothing is maintenance free but it is a tiny fraction of steel rail.

Even a plane that lands on an airstrip with a maintenance vehicle on it will have the same trouble as Germany.

Actually the Chinese maglev guideway costs more to build and maintain than the Japanese SC maglev which is about same as HSR due to not having steel rail or overhead wires.

Power usage it is the same as one with wheels at the same speed.

The tyres never go anywhere near the speed of aircraft tyres.

It has been tested with passengers for ten years 1997 to 2007 before being given an export licence so I am sure it is safe.

The reason the Japanese SC maglev is so expensive is because they do not have the Chinese experience in tunnels and being a democracy they have the same problem as California trying to please everybody so the French just went home with their HSR

I was surprised they even allowed a communist leader in Japan who wants to stop it in this maglev forum where I bang on a bit https://www.maglevboard.net/forum/index.php
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:27 am Here we go again:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rev ... 5c87g.html
The outline of it is incorporated in the Six Cities outline, which we've known about for some time. However, the plan retains the Goulburn and Bathurst corridors which the rail study recommended against.

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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

I believe it would be just as cheap driving a tunnel from Newcastle, Lithgow and Wollongong to Parramatta for a simple non stop express metro to avoid all the squabbling.

Because Australia is a democracy it would have the same problems as the California HSR or even our inland rail where people cannot agree on anything on the surface but if it is non stop express in a tunnel that is avoided.
Last edited by eddy on Sat Dec 24, 2022 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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eddy wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:07 pm I believe it would be just as cheap driving a tunnel from Newcastle, Lithgow and Wollongong to Parramatta for a simple non stop express metro to avoid all the squabbling.
I think with the experience they've gained driving tunnel for metro and roads leads them to doing precisely the same for this. It would be mostly tunneled. A conventional interurban-type electric train would be the conveyance though rather than metro trains.
Last edited by tonyp on Sat Dec 24, 2022 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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eddy wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:07 pm I believe it would be just as cheap driving a tunnel from Newcastle, Lithgow and Wollongong to Parramatta for a simple non stop express metro to avoid all the squabbling.
You have already raised another thread on this subject so can we leave it at that?
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... on-studies

Back to square one yet again I suppose. Can't wait for the next announcement of a feasibility study next election.
NSW government slams brakes on high-speed rail plans after spending $100m on studies

The Perrottet government has quietly abandoned its vision to build its own dedicated fast rail line between Sydney and Newcastle despite four years and roughly $100m spent on feasibility studies, abruptly halting work on a final business case just as geotechnical drilling was being planned.

Confidential documents seen by Guardian Australia reveal that the New South Wales transport department now considers further planning and construction of a dedicated fast rail line to Newcastle to be a task for the commonwealth and its yet-to-be-operational High Speed Rail Authority (HSRA) – which will itself re-start feasibility studies when it is formed.

The decision to dramatically scale back its fast rail agenda comes as the NSW government prepares to go deeper into debt to pay for the state’s ballooning infrastructure build.

Initially announced by the former premier Gladys Berejiklian as a showpiece policy in the lead-up to the 2019 state election, NSW’s fast rail strategy had focussed on four corridors from Sydney – to Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra and Orange – options that were identified in a government-commissioned review into potential routes undertaken by the British rail expert Prof Andrew McNaughton.

“I’m not going to wait for the other states and the federal government, we’ve waited too long so NSW will start the process,” Berejiklian said of fast rail when announcing the strategy.

While the McNaughton report has been kept secret by the NSW government, with Guardian Australia spending two years attempting to obtain the strategy under freedom of information laws, it is understood that early-stage pre-feasibility cases for all four corridors were conducted with the Newcastle option emerging as a priority for the strategy.

In the years since, the department had been progressing a final business case for the construction of a new, dedicated track for a train capable of travelling up to 250km/h from a station at Sydney’s Olympic Park to Newcastle, achieving the trip in one hour, compared to the more than two and a half hours that express services currently take.

In addition to new rolling stock and track, the faster travel time was to be achieved by limiting the service to a handful of stops including Epping, Tuggerah, Gosford and Lake Macquarie.

Construction of the corridor was set to require about 50km of tunnelling, including an individual section as long as 30km to the Hawkesbury River as well as what would have been Australia’s longest rail bridge, as part of a megaproject that would have gradually opened from the second half of next decade.

Geotechnical testing plans were underway, with the first step to conduct rock drilling at the site where tunnelling would be required to reach the Hawkesbury river.

However the Guardian can reveal that in mid-December, fast rail project teams that had been developing the final business case for the Newcastle corridor were told that building a new dedicated track was no longer a consideration of the state government.

At the time the project was shelved, there were scores of people on teams – either as department employees or external consultants – devoted to it. They have since been redeployed to smaller projects to add additional tracks to short sections of the existing suburban train network.

The NSW government had spent $87m on planning for its fast rail strategy since 2019, budget papers show, and had allocated a further $95m to spend this financial year, with project teams’ operations running as planned up until the abrupt change of direction in December.

Instead, the state government’s plans to improve rail services to Newcastle now constitute track quadruplication at three sections of the existing railway – between Tuggerah-Wyong, Hornsby-Berowra and Epping-Hornsby – measures which are expected to allow express services that currently run between Newcastle and Sydney to run more frequently, as opposed to any speed improvements on the more than two-and-a-half hour trip.

The Perrottet government’s rail strategy now stands in contrast to McNaughton’s position, who told the Sydney Morning Herald in December that it was not possible to simply upgrade the existing track. “It’s a lovely piece of Victorian [era] engineering, but it’s basically useless,” he said.

A Transport for NSW spokesperson insisted that “work has not ceased on plans to deliver a fast rail network in NSW”, but when asked if the department was currently developing final business cases for dedicated fast rail track on any corridors as part of its strategy, the spokesperson did not identify any.

Instead, the spokesperson said the department “is progressing business cases for in-corridor faster rail improvements to existing lines while planning progresses with the Australian government for a national high speed rail network”.

The Guardian understands the NSW government has not secured any land on any of the fast rail corridors identified by McNaughton.

The spokesperson said that “late last year”, the NSW infrastructure minister, Rob Stokes, wrote to his federal counterpart, Catherine King, asking for the future HSRA to work with the state transport department and the Greater Cities Commission (formerly the Greater Sydney Commission) “to ensure plans for high speed and fast rail are well coordinated between the commonwealth and NSW governments”.

A Greater Cities Commission spokesperson did not identify any progress it had made regarding fast rail collaboration with the commonwealth, and noted the HSRA did not yet exist.

On Wednesday, King addressed the National Press Club, saying the first thing the future HSRA would be tasked with “will be to redo the business case for high speed rail”, beginning with Sydney to Newcastle. She noted that the NSW government had “got money already on the table” for fast rail in the area, raising the idea of “whether we combine those projects”.

The revelations about fast rail between Sydney and Newcastle follow the release of a new proposal last week arguing the Albanese government should pursue its high-speed rail ambition by progressively upgrading sections of the existing train corridor, starting between Sydney and Canberra as the cheapest and quickest way to deliver fast trains by the end of this decade, as opposed to the more challenging Newcastle corridor.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by 1whoknows »

Perhaps its as simple as the feasability study concluding that it wasnt feasible. Sydney has always been a victim of its own geography in terms of connecting it to the rest of the state.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

I know I bang on about this on another thread but I think it is applicable here too so this is a reply I put on another forum as our experts are still in the last century in my opinion.

It amazes me how smart they are with SC maglev and how dumb they are with tunnels take big bertha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNwx788OD0

In my mind it is partly being a democracy where everybody wants a station, the greenies want them to ditch the whole idea and they do not have the tunnel experience of China.

If you could get the Japanese SC maglev to work with the Chinese tunnel experience it would be good and Australia is a good place to do that as ordering the 60 TBM off China would break down our differences.

Why would you want double tracking when it is only 20 minutes between passing stations and because of the old drill and blast horseshoe shape of the small tunnel in Japan when you can have a single guideway that is cheaper to build and can carry containers down the bottom of a circular TBM tunnel resulting in less air resistance which allows faster and cheaper running.

Japan would like to showcase the SC maglev to the world but because it cannot take overnight container trains it has to be subsidised but perhaps they may be interested in kicking the can as well in Australia.
Last edited by eddy on Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Wasn't it agreed that talk of the maglev would be confined to its dedicated thread?
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Linto63 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:06 am Wasn't it agreed that talk of the maglev would be confined to its dedicated thread?
Sorry if I upset you but perhaps some people might like to know as it is being talked about.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Is it, haven't heard anything about it being on any stakeholders radar?
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Linto63 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:32 am Is it, haven't heard anything about it being on any stakeholders radar?
Sorry, it was only NSW.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by verbatim9 »

I wonder how subsequent Governments are going to fund HSR since the recent 330 billion dollar Aukus agreement. The current Labor Government also wants to enhance the child and aged care sector as well as the NDIS, which is mooted to cost billions, drawing from other vital infrastructure projects.

I guess the only way to fund this is to increase net migration, as well as broaden the GST to all areas incl health and food and raise it to 15% in stages over the next 8 years

I gather that the Government has a plan to increase net debt as well.

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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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GST income is distributed to the states. It is not generally available for federal projects.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by verbatim9 »

boronia wrote:GST income is distributed to the states. It is not generally available for federal projects.
But the states generally manage rail projects in conjunction with the federal government, as its usually a 50/50 or 80/20 split like federal Hwys.

Also having more money going to the states will help alleviate all these special top ups from the federal government, thus providing more funds for the federal government to spend on the own projects.



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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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The HSRA is a Federal statutory agency to advise on, plan and, with the consent of states and territories, construct a high speed rail system within Australia. Presumably much like the ARTC.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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With the Federal Government now having to find $400+B to fund their submarine purchases, I wonder how they will go funding a $200+B rail line from Melbourne to Brisbane in the same time frame?
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:56 pm If I had 400 billion dollars sitting around that I absolutely needed to spend, I probably wouldn't spend it on subs that won't get here for twenty years and won't have any real impact on anything once they do get here, other than angering the next major world power. I'd much rather spend the money on a high speed rail that would actually be useful for the citizens of the nation I lead. But hey, if it was really up to me I wouldn't spend the money at all.

The Betoota Advocate had a hilarious headline regarding the subs: "Government spends $368 Billion on some submarines that will halt China's invasion by 14 hours".

The US is a dying empire and it baffles me why we're so intent on tying ourselves to the mast of a sinking ship.

To bring it back on topic, my guess is that after giving 400 billion to someone else's military complex, we probably won't be spending even more hundreds of billions on high speed rail. This whole thing is medium speed rail with an advertising spin
The best thing we can do with our population base is building up medium speed rail and that's where the effort should be focussed. Leave the long distance stuff to the airlines who do a very competent job.

Still not much value if we're invaded. It disappoints me the number of people who pay no regard to the lessons of the 1930s and 1940s and seem perfectly willing to give up our country to a tyrannical invader. The jerks who run tyrant countries are not going to stop just because you try to avoid angering them. Weakness only encourages them. Appeasement never, ever works. Building up defence is just something you have to do when the world turns dangerous. Yes, it's a pain in the neck, but instead of turning criticism inwards (it's not us who are stirring the pot), go and try talking to Russia, China, Iran and North Korea and tell them to stop doing it. I'm sure they'll listen to you.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by alleve »

Merc1107 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:52 pm
eddy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:45 pm Maybe if we ordered the 60 TBM off China Xi would have to treat us a bit better who knows?
Any trade we do with China is spare change to them compared to all the other nations they trade with. On the other hand, China's trade is extremely important to Australia.
alleve wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:56 pmThe US is a dying empire and it baffles me why we're so intent on tying ourselves to the mast of a sinking ship.
The U.S., or more broadly, the West, share our values. In Australia we vote for whom we please, speak or otherwise express ourselves as we please. How acceptable is any sort of dissent in China?

The West have traded with China and been content turning something of a blind eye to their behaviours, perhaps because we'd foolishly hoped that trade liberalisation, and the resulting improvement in living standards, would cause significant liberalisation of their economy and society, and pacify any expansionist agendas they had. We're now in a position (albeit less so since the trade restrictions occurred) where they could devastate Australia not with invasion, but with more trade restrictions, all thanks to greedy businesses who are content to sell their souls, destroy (homogenise) society, even devastate the planet, for the record profits trade will bring them.
Because we've never turned a blind eye to the evil behaviours of the US, right? And we've never joined the US in said behaviours, right? The argument that China is a horribly immoral state that we need to stand against completely falls apart when you realise that the state we ally ourselves to is also a horribly immoral state that has been ruining the planet for the best part of the last century. If you don't believe me, look at a list of the conflicts the US has been a part of since WWII.

By the way, the US only loves freedom of speech when it benefits them. They sure weren't a fan of overseas democracy in the 1950s.

Sure, we didn't start stirring the pot, but by militarising we are helping the pot stir faster, while also giving hard working Australians' money to weapons manufacturers.

I suppose my point is that the submarines are a waste. We are militarising to fight a threat that only exists to us because we are intent on militarising, and it's a threat that not only do we rely on economically, but also will be the next major superpower of the world and is impossible for us to defeat. China isn't the axis in this situation, this isn't a war we win, nor is it a war we need to have. Has anyone noticed that China isn't pointing guns at New Zealand?

To bring it back on topic, I agree with TonyP about medium speed rail. HSR is Australia is also a waste. The focus should be on faster rail and more capacity, and this seems to be what is happening - the first "HSR" project announced is quad tracking a short portion of the CCN.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

I am looking forward to the eventual update of "We did another study and it's still not feasible".

Although a proposed map of where & how they would intend to pull it off would be nice as I am really concerned about the terrain and environment past Gosford as it doesn't exactly scream that it is HSR friendly.

I'm for it but I just don't simply see it happening, not in my lifetime and I'm young-ish.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Linto63 »

Nice work if you can get it. Plenty of overseas jollies no doubt in the offering. But will it bring High Speed Rail any closer to fruition?
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Glen »

boronia wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:15 pm The HSRA is a Federal statutory agency to advise on, plan and, with the consent of states and territories, construct a high speed rail system within Australia. Presumably much like the ARTC.
Is this the one you mean?

https://youtu.be/8av3knflbQo
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