NSW High Speed Rail... On Again Off Again

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Transtopic
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:38 am
The first priority of the Authority will be planning and corridor works for the Sydney to Newcastle section of the high-speed rail network, backed by a $500 million commitment from the Australian Government.
If I'm not mistaken, this money is for tweaks to the existing line around Wyong to separate freight from passenger services. Maybe working towards "fast rail" but would be nothing to do with a future HSR line?
Correct. It will have bugger all effect on so called Fast Rail in the short to medium term at least. Most of the general populace wouldn't understand the difference between Fast (Medium) Speed Rail and High Speed Rail anyway. A High Speed Rail line would need to be completely segregated from existing lines, except perhaps for the final few kms into a CBD terminus, such as Central in Sydney, using the existing Western Main Line to and from the North and the East Hills Line express tracks via Sydenham to and from the South. In that scenario, the HSR trains would have to be dual voltage, using 25kv AC power on the HSR lines and 1,500v DC on the existing Sydney Trains electric network.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by peterkl »

High speed rail scam again....Oz population is not enough to make HSR financially sustainable as major population centres have fewer than 20m people combined and stops are not integrating into major international airports.

it is too expansive to build 350/300/250kph lines here unless you dont care the fragile environmental conditions. 200kph lines may still be possible with stops at intl airports and major regional centres
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Swift »

They won't let it go will they? Are Australians lulled that easily? Apparently so.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

People seem quick to forget this is ALWAYS, ALWAYS some election promise, all the hype and fanfair with the whole "elect us and we'll deliver the High Speed rail the state deserves". Then said party wins but not on that promise alone and that's exactly it, the hype dies down from there and is swept under the rug until the next election where it is hyped up again.

I've said it so many times on this thread previously before I am sure, yet am ignored when I state the obvious (that'll it will never happen) and the discussion just continues on that this will happen surely. No it simply won't, just bury this whole high speed rail idea please & move on. Express (XPT equivalent or on par) trains is about as close as we're going to get to HSR and that's miles off from what a HSR is suppose to be by definition.

I don't have any expertise in the matter of how it would be pulled off, I just know that after the 30 millionth time that it's been announced and still hasn't gotten boots & tools on the ground it's just too good to be true, anyone waiting for this to happen should know it simply won't, stop waiting for it.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

peterkl wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:04 pm High speed rail scam again....Oz population is not enough to make HSR financially sustainable as major population centres have fewer than 20m people combined and stops are not integrating into major international airports.

it is too expansive to build 350/300/250kph lines here unless you dont care the fragile environmental conditions. 200kph lines may still be possible with stops at intl airports and major regional centres
HSR is uneconomical and you need an economically viable 700 km/h SC maglev guideway that can take an overnight container train between Sydney and Melbourne to make daytime fares lower than planes and perhaps in the future depending on tunnel advances and population centres extend it to other cities.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Linto63 »

That isn't going to happen either.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:04 pm That isn't going to happen either.
Maybe not in my lifetime but sooner or later it will as it is better than wasting money on buying up surface property for HSR which is uneconomical anywhere in the world as it is too slow and cannot take an overnight container train to reduce daytime fares.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by moa999 »

High speed freight won't work for the same reason low speed freight doesn't.

For time sensitive stuff it can't wait for overnight, it's on a plane and already delivered.

For less time sensitive goods it won't work for the same reason as existing rail - too many additional touch points loading and unloading adds costs in labor and delays.

And a vast bulk of our stuff gets imported and most ships will stop at multiple ports so you just direct the goods to where they are going.

The only small exception is the small intermodal rail, but that's more about getting goods out of congested CBD ports more efficiently.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

moa999 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:27 pm High speed freight won't work for the same reason low speed freight doesn't.

For time sensitive stuff it can't wait for overnight, it's on a plane and already delivered.

For less time sensitive goods it won't work for the same reason as existing rail - too many additional touch points loading and unloading adds costs in labor and delays.

And a vast bulk of our stuff gets imported and most ships will stop at multiple ports so you just direct the goods to where they are going.

The only small exception is the small intermodal rail, but that's more about getting goods out of congested CBD ports more efficiently.
Heavy rail only takes 1% of palletised freight as it is too slow and the rest goes by truck all over the world but a container train can go between Sydney and Melbourne eight hours faster than any truck allowing freight to be picked up through the day to be delivered the next morning either in smaller trucks, container semis or on skeletals where needed.

There is no way planes could handle that tonnage.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Swift »

We need to build higher speed rail linking towns within a certain radius of Sydney, perhaps encompassing the ACT, but no further.
Any further, fly, just fly.
Maybe look at the more advanced and superior Queensland for their tilt train idea with electrifying further afield. There is no excuse to have no electrification to Maitland, Bathurst and Bomaderry -Nowra by now.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Swift wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:09 pm We need to build higher speed rail linking towns within a certain radius of Sydney, perhaps encompassing the ACT, but no further.
Any further, fly, just fly.
Maybe look at the more advanced and superior Queensland for their tilt train idea with electrifying further afield. There is no excuse to have no electrification to Maitland, Bathurst and Bomaderry -Nowra by now.
You are only thinking about an uneconomical passenger train that leaves us stuck with 700,000 B doubles on the Hume per year and as Sydney and Melbourne grow and more time sensitive palletised we will be looking at 1,000,000 in ten years or maybe A doubles but the wear on the Hume will increase.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Randomness »

You are only thinking about an uneconomical passenger train that leaves us stuck with 700,000 B doubles on the Hume per year and as Sydney and Melbourne grow and more time sensitive palletised we will be looking at 1,000,000 in ten years or maybe A doubles but the wear on the Hume will increase.
If it's so uneconomical due to low population and ridership as a result, wouldn't it be able to operate freight as well if timed correctly? Sidings could also help with passing trains. I believe this is how workings on the UK's High Speed One (300kmh), Gothard Base Tunnel (line speed 200kmh) and EuroTunnel (line speed 160kmh) operate.

IIRC you also mentioned something about nowhere else in the world having high speed freight somewhere else. Currently GBRF in the UK have ordered a "Class 93" loco with the goal of fast freight, top speed 180kmh, which isn't bad going especially for their legacy lines. We could likely go higher so ~6hrs Sydney to Melbourne direct (alot of leeway for having to stop for passing trains), beating the truck. With trains also being more economical in comparison i'd imagine those trucks will get converted to train trips with time to the end destination being about the same but cheaper.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

Randomness wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:41 pm
You are only thinking about an uneconomical passenger train that leaves us stuck with 700,000 B doubles on the Hume per year and as Sydney and Melbourne grow and more time sensitive palletised we will be looking at 1,000,000 in ten years or maybe A doubles but the wear on the Hume will increase.
If it's so uneconomical due to low population and ridership as a result, wouldn't it be able to operate freight as well if timed correctly? Sidings could also help with passing trains. I believe this is how workings on the UK's High Speed One (300kmh), Gothard Base Tunnel (line speed 200kmh) and EuroTunnel (line speed 160kmh) operate.

IIRC you also mentioned something about nowhere else in the world having high speed freight somewhere else. Currently GBRF in the UK have ordered a "Class 93" loco with the goal of fast freight, top speed 180kmh, which isn't bad going especially for their legacy lines. We could likely go higher so ~6hrs Sydney to Melbourne direct (alot of leeway for having to stop for passing trains), beating the truck. With trains also being more economical in comparison i'd imagine those trucks will get converted to train trips with time to the end destination being about the same but cheaper.
Because trucks can go door to door you have to go 700km/h to beat them by eight hours to deliver the container first thing the very next morning earning $2,000,000 per night and making daytime fares below planes.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

China is hopeless at maglev and Japan is hopeless at tunnels so why don’t they swallow their pride and work together building Sydney to Melbourne perhaps with American innovation.

This is interesting the compound annual growth rate from Bloomberg https://www.bloomberg.com/press-release ... t-research but they don’t seem to know China is stuck with trucks with only 1 cm clearance.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by boronia »

High-speed Sydney to Melbourne rail plan ‘will never work’: infrastructure tsar

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/hig ... 5c4f6.html

Infrastructure tsar Higgins has a great CV to back his claims:
-chairman of London’s Gatwick Airport
-joined Sydney Airport’s board earlier this year
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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boronia wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:14 am High-speed Sydney to Melbourne rail plan ‘will never work’: infrastructure tsar

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/hig ... 5c4f6.html

Infrastructure tsar Higgins has a great CV to back his claims:
-chairman of London’s Gatwick Airport
-joined Sydney Airport’s board earlier this year
HSR is uneconomical all over the world because it cannot take a proven 700 km/h overnight container train that earns $2,000,000 per night at $2,000 per container reducing the daytime fare below planes.

So if the distance between two big cities is 1,000 km you will be stuck with trucks and planes like the rest of the world.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

The Japanese SC maglev has proven 600 km/h and if you build it to take overnight container trains to make it economically viable in a single 11 psi tunnel it will go 700 km/h.

A single tunnel could be built Sydney to Melbourne with passing stations at Canberra and Albury for $60,000,000,000 with a return of $1,000,000,000 p/a now this is not a great return but it is better than wasting money on a slow surface HSR which cannot take an overnight container train to make it profitable.

Here is a good explanation of how it was built and tested successful for ten years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwF-STGtfE
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

eddy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:42 am
boronia wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:14 am High-speed Sydney to Melbourne rail plan ‘will never work’: infrastructure tsar

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/hig ... 5c4f6.html

Infrastructure tsar Higgins has a great CV to back his claims:
-chairman of London’s Gatwick Airport
-joined Sydney Airport’s board earlier this year
HSR is uneconomical all over the world because it cannot take a proven 700 km/h overnight container train that earns $2,000,000 per night at $2,000 per container reducing the daytime fare below planes.

So if the distance between two big cities is 1,000 km you will be stuck with trucks and planes like the rest of the world.
That train would be 1,000 containers long whitch is longer then any of the Hunter Valley-Newcastle harbour coal trains whitch might be upto 120 wagons long
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Transtopic »

I do agree though that HSR in the Australian context is pie in the sky stuff, certainly for the foreseeable future. It might be viable one day, but not now. To achieve the full benefit of fast east coast inter-capital HSR, there would have to be limited stops, which would bypass many regional centres. True HSR would require a completely new segregated network. It's not just a matter of upgrading existing lines, although in saying that, it would be more cost effective to focus on regional travel serving more regional centres with FASTER Rail (up to 200km/h) connecting with the respective capital cities in each state rather than interstate travel. That would also significantly reduce travel times for the latter.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by Swift »

Maybe that 90 billion that was meant to go to France for diesel submarines could have gone to buying high speed trains from them.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Campbelltown busboy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:30 pm
eddy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:42 am

HSR is uneconomical all over the world because it cannot take a proven 700 km/h overnight container train that earns $2,000,000 per night at $2,000 per container reducing the daytime fare below planes.

So if the distance between two big cities is 1,000 km you will be stuck with trucks and planes like the rest of the world.
That train would be 1,000 containers long whitch is longer then any of the Hunter Valley-Newcastle harbour coal trains whitch might be upto 120 wagons long
Sorry, I should have said ten trains (5 each way} of two kilometres.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

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Swift wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:40 pm Maybe that 90 billion that was meant to go to France for diesel submarines could have gone to buying high speed trains from them.
True HSR cannot take freight so even in France they are reluctant to build more as just a public service.

HSR is last century and the future is fast steel rail and SC maglev which only Japan has proven with passengers over ten years and you can discount the claims from China because it is only a mock-up that they hope will beat Japans SC maglev but that cannot happen with only 1 cm clearance as it costs too much to build and maintain.

Although I say the future is fast rail unless it is SC maglev between two big cities 1,000 km apart you will be stuck with trucks and planes like the rest of the world.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by matthewg »

The reason the LGV lines don't carry freight is simply axle load. The LGV lines are designed for a 17-tonne axle load. The 2 postal frieght TGVs they built, could not carry enough cargo to make it competitive without exceeding the 17-tonne axle load. The secondary reason is grades, the LGV routes have steeper grades as the super-fast TGV trains can just coast over them.

The Germans tried to build their first HSR light to be mixed-use but found it to be fabulously expensive and it didn't work anyway - a 150km/hr high-speed goods train took away too many 330km/hr paths for the passenger services. All later lines are passenger-only.

Maglev is not magic - they have friction as well and at any rate, at those speeds, air friction is the most significant power eater anyway, the friction of the guideway is down in the noise. So why build a super-speed train that's not significantly more power efficient and lose any network effects of being able to spread out onto the conventional network?
Yes, the Japanese did that ways back with Shinkansen, going for standard gauge in a narrow gauge country, but in places with extensive standard gauge networks and a large body of experience in HSR trains interoperating onto conventional lines in Europe, why would you go 100% incompatible?

IMHO maglev only makes sense if you can stick it in a tube and suck most of the air out to reduce aerodynamic drag. Hyperloop anyone? How well is that one working out? All PR fluff and no substance so far.

I've ridden a TGV from Paris that ran 600km at mostly 300km hr to its first stop. That's most of the way between Sydney and Melbourne just there.

Sydney Melbourne HSR will come eventually when jet fuel becomes more expensive than rare metals. There is certainly the volume of passengers between the two cities to support it. Trains powered by overhead wires can get their power from multiple sources and be easily changed over time without major re-engineering of the system. Running jet engines on anything other than increasingly expensive hydrocarbons is difficult. I'm sure aviation will come up with something but it won't be cheap.
The killer for rail is the start-up cost. An airline doesn't have to build a guideway between the endpoints, they get that mostly for free. If the railway didn't have to sink the cost of the route, they would kill airlines on operating costs.
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by eddy »

I know there will be resistance in the current like overhead wires and also in the air resistance but zero maintenance and speed is the reason they did not want wheels.

If the single $60b tunnel is reduced to a breathable 11psi it will go 700 km/h and anything that cannot beat a truck by 8 hours will not get palletised freight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwF-STGtfE
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Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Post by matthewg »

eddy wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:47 pm I know there will be resistance in the current like overhead wires and also in the air resistance but zero maintenance and speed is the reason they did not want wheels.

If the single $60b tunnel is reduced to a breathable 11psi it will go 700 km/h and anything that cannot beat a truck by 8 hours will not get palletised freight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwF-STGtfE
Maglev guideways are not maintenance-free. Magnetic levitation is not without power costs either. The Japanese maglev trains 'land' at low speed, so have aircraft tyres that need careful maintenance checks.

The German Transrapid test track had an extremely nasty accident when they dispatched a test train full of tourists on a joy ride and then collided with the maintenance trolley that had not returned to the depot. Every morning the maintenance trolley did the route to ensure nothing had fallen on the track overnight.

The Japanese system is quite expensive too, due to the need to run with a higher levitation gap to make it earthquake resistant. The Transrapid system the Chinese licensed runs a LOT closer to the guideway and that operating gap wasn't considered safe in earthquake-prone Japan.

On either system, if there is a disturbance that causes the train to contact the track at speed., that could be nasty. From memory, Transrapid used active levitation control and levitate at all times. If the train contacts the guideway for any reason, badness. The landing gear on the Japanese trains probably wouldn't cope with a 700km/hr landing either.

There is also the point you can order 'conventional HSR' trains from a handful of manufacturers (Alstom, Siemens, CRRC, etc) and they are broadly interoperable. Your 2nd batch of trains could come from a different builder.

Once you commit to a maglev route, you are forever locked to that vendor.

(Single sourcing is a pet hate of mine, others don't care about being beholden to a single vendor).
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