NSW High Speed Rail... On Again Off Again

[Campbelltown busboy]

I have an even better idea. Instead of going through the hassle of digging tunnels in land, have an under sea suspended tunnel tube with trains running through a vacuum which allows incredible speeds. I have seen a doco proposing such a system between countries.
Norway is already constructing suspended road tunnels under their very deep network of fjords.

That under sea suspended tunnel idea could be a option to link Tasmania with the mainland witch would give the people that travel between Tasmania and the mainland a third option if they don’t want to fly or they know that they would know that they wouldn’t be able to cope with how bass strait would punish the sprit of Tasmania

[Swift]

I have an even better idea. Instead of going through the hassle of digging tunnels in land, have an under sea suspended tunnel tube with trains running through a vacuum which allows incredible speeds. I have seen a doco proposing such a system between countries.
Norway is already constructing suspended road tunnels under their very deep network of fjords.

That under sea suspended tunnel idea could be a option to link Tasmania with the mainland witch would give the people that travel between Tasmania and the mainland a third option if they don’t want to fly or they know that they would know that they wouldn’t be able to cope with how bass strait would punish the sprit of Tasmania

Unfortunately, while the whole of Tasmania has a population of half a million, such a project won't leave the ground. Awesome pipe dream though -literally!
Linking the capitals this way if fleshed out fully as a technology, would be well worth exploring, as the smooth high speeds achieved would make the slightly longer travel distances worth while.

[ACM]

That's the issue Eddy, they keep talking about it but never enact on it, I'm at the point where as much as it'll interest me because I'm into Transport, I just tune it out, it is a broken record at this point. Is the next election promise going to be "50% off Opal fares on Tuesdays?".

...

another assumption of mine is this is something they want to use as a bargaining chip to ensure their put first on the ballot come election time. One has to remember a lot of these are also "election promises" and once the election is over, it is guaranteed you won't hear anymore of it until the next election as I said in my first post.

It really really needs to be something at this point that isn't part of an election promise.

The Australian public is to apathetical to broken promises and crossed boundaries. Abbott's cuts to the SBS and ABC, increased surveillance & permanent emergency powers (particularly in Vic), hard line covid police in western Sydney, and 'fixing the budget'.

It's all well announcing a feasibility study. We've done hundreds of feasibility studies on rail here and there, costing Billions. Some of them have even been kept secret. Either it's a worthwhile investment NOW or it isn't. You've got the data, so pick a project and JUST DO IT! By that i mean JUST BUILD IT!

[Fleet Lists]

That is how things got done up to about 50 years ago ie government decisions and it got done but no we seem to need endless feasibility studies which cost the earth and generally totally miss the point.

[ACM]

That is how things got done up to about 50 years ago ie government decisions and it got done but no we seem to need endless feasibility studies which cost the earth and generally totally miss the point.

Hang on there. Station commuter carpark rorts didn't need any feasibility study. Nor did sports rorts. Politicians call the shots (for better or worse). Except now they just call in the yes men from KPMG et. al. Unfortunately, in 50 years time we will need feasibility studies for these feasibility studies. We will have completely turned from a manufacturing/construction/mining economy to a 100% "blah blah blah" economy.

[Merc1107]

Except now they just call in the yes men from KPMG et. al.
.... We will have completely turned from a manufacturing/construction/mining economy to a 100% "blah blah blah" economy.

Oh, you must be talking about Managers, who manage Managers, who manage Managers (...) all with bespoke key business priorities

[Transtopic]

A more meaningful and credible commitment would be to upgrade existing Regional and Interstate rail lines to Medium Speed Rail standard (up to 200km/h) with duplications, curve easing, level crossing elimination and deviations, which would benefit both passenger and freight traffic. The High Speed Rail proposal seems to be solely focused on passenger traffic, which IMO is not sustainable in the context of our sparse population density and long distances between State capitals. A HSR line would skip many regional centres which could otherwise be serviced by MSR. It's time the dreamers had a reality check.

[tonyp]

A more meaningful and credible commitment would be to upgrade existing Regional and Interstate rail lines to Medium Speed Rail standard (up to 200km/h) with duplications, curve easing, level crossing elimination and deviations, which would benefit both passenger and freight traffic. The High Speed Rail proposal seems to be solely focused on passenger traffic, which IMO is not sustainable in the context of our sparse population density and long distances between State capitals. A HSR line would skip many regional centres which could otherwise be serviced by MSR. It's time the dreamers had a reality check.

This is the more pragmatic approach that the NSW government is currently studying.

https://www.nsw.gov.au/a-fast-rail-future-for-nsw

All that Albanese has done is single out a mere one of the numerous corridors being studied and highlighted it (potential Labor votes in Newcastle?). Then he's gone for the least pragmatically achievable option for that - high speed rail. Cheap politics, not real commitment.

[hugh45]

One of the studies is a 45 minute fast train from Sydney to Nowra. The duplication of the line south of Unanderra would enable a quicker service to places like Kiama and Nowra(Bomaderry). Do they need a feasability study to do this?

[Linto63]

NSW government's track record is just as poor. Three years into its term and no indication of it actually doing anything.

[Swift]

Even California has strarted high speed rail and America is known for it's railroad system being stuck in the 60s.
LA the so called car dependent capital of the world has more light rail than Sydney as well as a metro for nearly three decades. A government bus system bigger than the STA did I mention?

Go on Sydney, keep being on your high horse and patting yourself on the back.

[tonyp]

NSW government's track record is just as poor. Three years into its term and no indication of it actually doing anything.

What? Two posts after I post a link to show what they're doing, you make this comment? It does require quite a bit of detailed analysis you know, not just texta on a whiteboard. Jokes about studies aside, there is far more depth and breadth to this work than previous consultant studies on individual routes.

One of the studies is a 45 minute fast train from Sydney to Nowra. The duplication of the line south of Unanderra would enable a quicker service to places like Kiama and Nowra(Bomaderry). Do they need a feasability study to do this?

Like Transtopic, my position is that high speed rail is unrealistic in the Australian context, but medium speed rail is quite feasible. The medium speed objective of one hour to Wollongong, two hours to Nowra is vastly more attractive than what's available currently. The general medium-speed rule of thumb for maximum 2 hours for 160 km in any direction reaches Newcastle, Lithgow, Bundanoon and Nowra and would really make a difference to the greater Sydney economic area, the outer boundaries of which these cities and towns roughly define. It would also claw back some of the patronage losses to the ever-expanding motorway network. I will now be able to reach Wollongong from Bomaderry by car in about 50 minutes when the M1 Bomaderry-Berry section is opened shortly, compared with between 1:15 and 1:35 by train, depending on the duration of the changeover at Kiama. That's not just a discrepancy, it's a rout for rail.

I go to Wollongong regularly and often use rail because it costs me only $2.50 for that day, but travelling with more than one person at normal fares, if you own a car then, economically, you're mad not to drive it. Sydney I will only drive to because the rail trip is completely beyond the pale in both time and comfort. That takes about 2 hours to drive compared to about 2:45 in the train and about 100 times more comfortable in the car. The Endeavour does a reasonable job on the Kiama-Nowra section considering the number of rural level crossings that inhibit its potential, but five minutes off would enable it to maintain an hourly service throughout. Unfortunately the train is a bit of a gutless wonder, even on the straight. I hope the CAFs are better.

The double deck electric service is a joke, just ambling along and rocking and rolling so much that it's difficult to write or type. You really notice the difference between the stable single-deck Endeavour and the jelly-like Oscars (and Waratahs when you get to Sydney). So I make sure I do any writing I need between Bomaderry and Kiama! I hope the new double decks will be better, but the loss of at-level seating is a disaster. The amount of at-level seating with overhead luggage racks already plummeted from the generous provision in the V sets to the austere allowance in the Oscars. In the new interurbans, it's all but wiped out. Like with buses, there's this massive lack of understanding that stairs are a big issue for so many passengers, whether for mobility issues, families with prams or luggage. There's a reason that long-distance trains traditionally have doors at the carriage ends with plenty of scope for different seating and luggage options inside. The V set was the first and last NSW double deck to get it right (except for accessibility and that would be done if designed today).

One thing that would surely make a difference to the trip time and potential frequency between Kiama and Wollongong is duplication between Unanderra and Shellharbour. The reservation is there, the overbridges have been widened and the extra platforms are mostly there. All that's needed is the earthmoving equipment, a few small underbridges, signalling and finishing off. I regularly give Gareth Ward stick about this as he keeps fobbing off rail and moves onto another road project in spite of saying he'll "look at rail after this road project finishes". Love politicians.

As for Wollongong-Sydney alignment, that's a whole other subject on a different level and it will be interesting to see what TfNSW's work will come up with. That will also be challenged by a motorway extension (Loftus-St Peters) in the future. I sometimes drive to Waterfall and change to train, but again that is slow and uncomfortable. Much work to be done.

[ACM]

NSW government's track record is just as poor. Three years into its term and no indication of it actually doing anything.

Especially as they've had a few terms as gov't and are 'spose to be dealing with a climate emergency (swift would call it something else). Meanwhile, M8, WCX, NCX, M9 are all happening. Long distance car travel is the worst for the environment - FFS.
Medium-speed 200kph mixed use rail would definitely be useful. There are some places where curves and tunnels and hills mean a completely new alignment would be necessary. Berowra-Gosford, Waterfall-Thirroul & Penrith-Bathurst.

As a people, we need to make the decision in if we are going to bite the bullet for a segregated high speed rail network. It's a yes or no question and we need to make a decision now. If yes, we build proper high speed rail that will change how we travel. If no, we build medium speed mixed use rail, which has less potential, but is easier to realise.

Whilst personally i'd like to see high speed rail serving Melbourne-Shepperton-Albury-Wagga Wagga-Canberra-Nowra-Wollongong-Sydney-Newcastle-Port Macquarie-Coffs Harbour-Byron-Gold Coast-Brisbane (with a branch from Canberra to Sydney via the Southern Highlands) I don't see this happening. At least the mixed use soln will (may) happen and benefit freight and passenger.

[Linto63]

What? Two posts after I post a link to show what they're doing, you make this comment? It does require quite a bit of detailed analysis you know, not just texta on a whiteboard. Jokes about studies aside, there is far more depth and breadth to this work than previous consultant studies on individual routes.

All they have done is piddling more money up the wall on yet another study, will still end up in the bottom draw with all of the others. Lots of feel good stuff about visions and potential, but no commitment to actually do anything. It will get ramped up again as we head into the election cycle, then as sure as night follows day, disappear again.

[tonyp]

All they have done is piddling more money up the wall on yet another study, will still end up in the bottom draw with all of the others. Lots of feel good stuff about visions and potential, but no commitment to actually do anything. It will get ramped up again as we head into the election cycle, then as sure as night follows day, disappear again.

Or it may not. We'll see. It has to seriously start somwhere.

[eddy]

There is no way overnight containers can travel on steel rail as it is too slow so HSR depends on daytime fares to pay for the high maintenance without the income from container trains for urgent palletised freight meaning when Sydney and Melbourne are twice the size there will be around 2,000,000 B doubles on the Hume per year with twice the maintenance.

No maintenance Maglev is the only answer and any money spent on bandaid solutions is wasted.

[Randomness]

There is no way overnight containers can travel on steel rail as it is too slow so HSR depends on daytime fares to pay for the high maintenance without the income from container trains for urgent palletised freight meaning when Sydney and Melbourne are twice the size there will be around 2,000,000 B doubles on the Hume per year with twice the maintenance.

No maintenance Maglev is the only answer and any money spent on bandaid solutions is wasted.

- No maintainance? Wouldn't the infrastructure for that eventually rust causing more disruption than trackwork?
- What about the current communities along the mainline? They'll of course be complaining about being "ignored"?
- What about other industries along the current mainline? How would coal trains work for example?

Medium speed will do for now, if we straighten the line, relocate stations, electrify (Preferably to something like 25kv AC for more power), duplicate and quad in some places (for passing express services and freight) that should keep everyone happy (fast freight, double the speed of Syd-Mel vs the car and keeps rural communities train service.

[Swift]

There is no way overnight containers can travel on steel rail as it is too slow so HSR depends on daytime fares to pay for the high maintenance without the income from container trains for urgent palletised freight meaning when Sydney and Melbourne are twice the size there will be around 2,000,000 B doubles on the Hume per year with twice the maintenance.

No maintenance Maglev is the only answer and any money spent on bandaid solutions is wasted.

- No maintainance? Wouldn't the infrastructure for that eventually rust causing more disruption than trackwork?
- What about the current communities along the mainline? They'll of course be complaining about being "ignored"?
- What about other industries along the current mainline? How would coal trains work for example?

Medium speed will do for now, if we straighten the line, relocate stations, electrify (Preferably to something like 25kv AC for more power), duplicate and quad in some places (for passing express services and freight) that should keep everyone happy (fast freight, double the speed of Syd-Mel vs the car and keeps rural communities train service.

I'm sure it's easy enough to run a special vehicle to run an abrasive overt the tracks once in a while. Rust doesn't affect magnet performance.

Let's just keep aiming for mediocre outcomes so we never reach the heights we really require long term, particularly with the great distances here.
Let's stick to 18th century tech and remain a middle of the road country.

[eddy]

The Japanese maglev was tested with people 1997 to 2007 when it was given approval for export and there is no mention of rust.

At 700 km/h it is only 20 minutes between Sydney, Canberra, Albury and Melbourne and you cannot have many stops with speed.

As there is only 1% of palletised freight goes by slow rail I would imagine bulk freight and slow passenger trains would keep sharing.

[moa999]

I go to Wollongong regularly and often use rail because it costs me only $2.50 for that day.

$2.50 fares that haven't gone up in how long, and a max adult fare of $8 and weekly caps are part of the problem.

We drastically under price medium distance rail, which means economically the lose money which means it's much harder to find money for upgrades.

With most cars your at $10 for fuel plus any Sydney tolls, plus parking, plus depreciation.

[tonyp]

$2.50 fares that haven't gone up in how long, and a max adult fare of $8 and weekly caps are part of the problem.

We drastically under price medium distance rail, which means economically the lose money which means it's much harder to find money for upgrades.

With most cars your at $10 for fuel plus any Sydney tolls, plus parking, plus depreciation.

Practically all of those car vs PT cost comparisons you see are based on the option of people not owning a car at all. A realistic appraisal must be based on the fact that most families own at least one car anyway, thus depreciation, registration, insurance and other WOL costs are there anyway, whether you use it or not. That pretty much leaves fuel, parking and tolls (of which there are none of the latter outside Sydney) as the basis for comparison.

In Sydney, the totals would still weigh heavily in favour of public transport for a single driver. Once you add more and more of the family to the car, the margin dramatically diminishes, though PT may come out slightly ahead at the end. Outside Sydney, the balance tips. I was talking about Wollongong and I've done those calculations obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be using the train when travelling on my own (but the comparison starts to change the more family I add to the group). You have to pay to park in and around Wollongong CBD if you want to be close by, otherwise you don't have to go too far afield to park free and walk, or use the Gong Shuttle.

I know there's a school of thought (among those who don't use public transport) that we underprice distance rail, but if we raise the prices to the extent that petrol for the car is cheaper, you're definitely going to drive patronage off. I've lived through that in UK. You decide that it would be nice to go somewhere by train, then you look up the ticket price, go white and faint, then after recovering you start looking up hire car deals. I haven't come across any textbook that says public transport should be the preserve of the rich. Mind you, that seems to be the current drift with the threat to make electric cars compulsory, so you might get your patronage forcibly driven onto PT that way. Then you can get to work charging them fares that make their eyeballs bleed. Following which, everybody just ends up staying at home, which we've already been trained for with covid. Gotta love nihilism, which seems to be the current trend.

[Transtopic]

What? Two posts after I post a link to show what they're doing, you make this comment? It does require quite a bit of detailed analysis you know, not just texta on a whiteboard. Jokes about studies aside, there is far more depth and breadth to this work than previous consultant studies on individual routes.

All they have done is piddling more money up the wall on yet another study, will still end up in the bottom draw with all of the others. Lots of feel good stuff about visions and potential, but no commitment to actually do anything. It will get ramped up again as we head into the election cycle, then as sure as night follows day, disappear again.

The fact that Professor McNaughton's report on the NSW Government's Fast Rail Proposal, which was completed some time ago, hasn't been publicly released says it all.

[moa999]

I know there's a school of thought (among those who don't use public transport) that we underprice distance rail, but if we raise the prices to the extent that petrol for the car is cheaper, you're definitely going to drive patronage off. I've lived through that in UK..

You deal with that by having cheap off-peak fares.

The vast majority of peak hour commuters are doing so because they work in office building in CBDd and carparking is insanely expensive ($10k+ a year or $25-80/day in Sydney).

And yet a weekly (5x2) rail ticket is $36.60 from Edgecliff (5km).
Yet only $50.00 from Newcastle (160km) or Gosford (75km) thanks to the weekly cap.

[flitter]

The fact that Professor McNaughton's report on the NSW Government's Fast Rail Proposal, which was completed some time ago, hasn't been publicly released says it all.

Worth an FOI request maybe?


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[Swift]

Redacted to bits.