http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-new ... vdy7j.html

Two-hour train ride between Canberra and Sydney on the cards

Steven Trask

Canberrans could be nipping up to Sydney in just two hours if a new high speed railway project gets the green light.

Executives from Spanish train-building company Talgo arrived in Canberra on Wednesday to discuss running their high speed passenger trains between the two cities.

Spanish company Talgo are proposing to run their state of the art trains (pictured) between Canberra and Sydney.
Spanish company Talgo are proposing to run their state of the art trains (pictured) between Canberra and Sydney. Photo: Steven Trask
Commercial director Guillermo Martinez told The Canberra Times the state of the art trains would halve the current four-hour rail journey between Canberra and Sydney.

The trains would run on the existing tracks between the two cities with little to no modification needed to railway infrastructure, he added.

"We have looked at the current track between Sydney and Canberra and it was not as bad as we thought," he said.

"There is no problem running our trains on the existing railway tracks.

"For us, this is one of the main reasons to put in our train set. Because we don't need to invest as much on the tracks."

The full proposal would cost less than $100 million, Mr Martinez said, with Talgo understood to be seeking contributions from governments in New South Wales and the ACT.

Mr Martinez said if the government committed to the project, Talgo would have the trains up and running in "12 months or less".

Talgo would also lend a demonstration train to Australia free of charge just to prove their technology worked before the government committed a cent.

"There would be no cost associated with the trial," Mr Martinez said.

"All of the initial cost for the trial would be borne by us."

The Indian government is currently running trials of Talgo trains between the cities of Mumbai and New Delhi.

In initial trials, conducted last September, the trains shaved more than four hours off the typical railway journey time of 16 hours.

Project manager Salvador Flores said the primary reason the trains travelled so fast was because they used a "tilting" system that allowed them to maintain speed on corners.

"Mainly it's the passive tilting system that allows the train to run faster. It's a difference in technology," he said.

Mr Martinez said it was too soon to tell exactly how quickly the units could travel on Australian tracks, although Talgo trains are capable of reaching speeds as fast as 200 kilometres per hour.

They would have a similar passenger capacity to the trains currently running on the Sydney to Canberra line, Mr Martinez added.

Fenner MP Dr Andrew Leigh is expected to meet with the Talgo delegation to discuss the project on Thursday.

"Although it is early days, Talgo's visit to Canberra highlights the range of affordable options available for the NSW government to shorten rail travel time between Sydney and Canberra," Dr Leigh said.

"The current journey of four hours puts the train behind the Canberra-Sydney bus line, but with a modest investment from the Berejiklian government, Talgo high-speed trains could make the trip in two hours and be competitive with air travel."

A public meeting has been organised to discuss the project on Thursday evening. It will begin at 6pm at 1 Balmain Crescent in Acton and will include presentations from Talgo representatives.

They won't be nipping in 2 h. Talgo didn't claim that, just a journalist.
The best hope is 2 h 15 min, but 2 h 30 min (as stated by Talgo) is realistic and achievable.
The stumbling block is Sydney - Macarthur. Thereafter, 160 km/h average is a bit optimistic, but 120 km/h average is easy.
Most European nations have lots of mainline track laid for 200 km/h. The tilting looks after most curve limits: 120 km/h should be possible anywhere, and 160 km/h on most.
The problem then will be pathing.

Roderick.

"Although it is early days, Talgo's visit to Canberra highlights the range of affordable options available for the NSW government to shorten rail travel time between Sydney and Canberra," Dr Leigh said.

I doubt that the NSW Government would have much interest in shortening rail travel time. They are only operating the current services under political sufferance, they wouldn't want to actually make it attractive.

Most of the line is on ARTC track,, I wonder if they would be interested in making all the infrastructure alterations necessary to allow higher speed operation?

Murrays are operating an hourly daytime coach service, with 16 services per day, (plus a few Greyhound trips); no way trains will match that.

Roderick.

May 16 2017 ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr takes slow train to Sydney to prove case for faster rail.
It was a stunt to show just how far Andrew Barr would go to improve rail infrastructure between Canberra and Sydney - undertaking a four-hour train trip to meet with NSW transport minister Andrew Constance.
So perhaps it was fitting that the Chief Minister's train was delayed by more than an hour after the Xplorer got stuck behind a freight train coming into Canberra.
ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr aboard a train to Sydney where he will meet with NSW Minister for Infrastructure Andrew Constance. Photo: Sitthixay Ditthavong.
Left waiting at the Kingston railway station, Mr Barr said the delay highlighted why he wanted to work with the NSW government on a joint bid to attract federal investment and speed up the trip between the two capital cities.
In last week's federal budget, the Turnbull government announced a $10 billion national rail program, which included $20 million to progress business cases for faster rail links between major cities and regional centres.
Mr Barr said this was a once-in-a-generation chance to get the line up to speed.
"This rail service is too slow, it's not competitive with road transport,' Mr Barr said.
"If the train journey were able to be reduced in time to anything three hours or less it would be competitive with current transport alternatives so I think with a relatively modest investment in the rolling stock, some signalling improvements and some work that can be undertaken on the line itself you could achieve that reduced travel time."
ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr addresses media outside Canberra railway station after his train to Sydney was delayed. Photo: Sitthixay Ditthavong.
"I've observed before the Prime Minister loves public transport, loves to take selfies on trains. Wouldn't it be fantastic if the prime minister could get from Kirribilli to The Lodge via rail, possibly even a light rail connection from here past the lodge?"
Mr Barr said the current service served a "niche" audience - people who had the luxury of time.
While the current passenger numbers were enough to support the current three services a day, he said a new and faster train would encourage more people to take the train.
"This is a major opportunity, one that may only come around every couple of decades so why not take it?" Mr Barr said.
While Mr Barr acknowledged the territory's contribution to any rail line upgrade would pale in comparison to that of NSW, he said the ACT could "add value" in other ways.
"We wouldn't be able to invest in improving the rail line on the NSW side of the border but we could certainly take responsibility for improvements on the ACT side and we can look to work with the NSW government around a procurement decision on the rolling stock," Mr Barr said.
"I wouldn't envisage there'd be a significant investment from the ACT government because the service is one principally run by NSW but what I'm saying is we can contribute and we would be interested in doing so, particularly if we could leverage through a three-government approach to a better outcome on this service."
Mr Barr said, while he was open to discussions about how to link the ACT into a high-speed rail line from Brisbane to Melbourne, his focus was to speed up the existing Canberra line.
"I understand a lot of people are very keen to make the leap from the 19th century system we have now to a 21st century system that travels at an extraordinary speed, but for a relatively low cost we can bring Canberra-Sydney rail services into the 20th century and get something that is competitive and I think we can pursue that realistically over the next few months and years," Mr Barr said.
http://www.theage.com.au/act-news/act-c ... w5lrl.html

Didn't we have trials with Talgo some years ago?
Clyde Eng Co - Motive Power - Vol 1 No 1 - 02.1986 - Page 1

An hypothecated 1 cent per litre rise in petrol and diesel fuel prices would raise in excess of $300 million per year. This would be enough to start building all these rail projects that have been "talked about" for decades. States would be required to match the funding on a $1 for $1 basis.

But why not make it 20c... It's not like people watch fuel prices that closely or that various government taxes don't already make up a substantial part

An SC maglev train would do it in 20 minutes.

Please only One thread for Mazglev - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=91472

This is what I put on another forum.

It is really good that we have not wasted money on the surface until the technology arrived to make it economical with 700 km/h SC overnight container freight trains to allow daytime fares to be below planes between some big cities.

Although it would only return 1% at first, because it would not be subject to much inflation it could soon return 10% by making the daytime fares just below planes.

Tim Bohm wants the fast train to Canberra but I hope he doesn't waste money on the surface as it should be a
20 minute SC maglev ride to Sydney.

The problem I see with slow surface rail is the experts are last century experts and it can never make a growing profit like connecting Sydney to Melbourne with passing stations at Canberra and Albury can be viewed here. viewtopic.php?t=91472&start=300

This is what I put on another forum.

From what I have read it is more the frontal cross section than the weight and if done in a breathable 11 psi tunnel with the pressure build up in front pushed out the exhaust valves on the launch shafts it will do 700 km/h.

So assuming it takes one hour at 740 megawatts per hour @$100 per MWh = $74,000 of power.

As each two kilometre train takes 100 containers at $2,000 each = $200,000 to maintain the daytime fares below planes it should break even at first but with no moving parts to maintain it is not subject to inflation like trucks and planes.

But cost of fuel is subject to inflation.

Fleet Lists wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:56 pm But cost of fuel is subject to inflation.

Exactly the trucks and planes will face far more inflation than cheap electricity and I have used the maximum power use for the SC maglev.

Cheap electricity - you must be kidding!

Fleet Lists wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:50 pm Cheap electricity - you must be kidding!

If 10 KWh is equal to 1 Litre of diesel

100 trucks using $1,000 each way @ $2 litre is $200,000 one way but a container train only uses $74,000 of power.

True HSR is uneconomical as it cannot take freight trains but because a single tunnel between Sydney and Melbourne with passing stations at Canberra and Albury can earn $2,000,000 every night it can keep the daytime fares below planes.

While the freight sidings are on the outskirts of each city, Parrahub would be the best position to have the Sydney end as it has 20,000 parking spaces next to the M4, the only virus free negatively ventilated building in Australia, 5,376 huge 4 ensuit bedroom units, multipurpose building with all transport and services at the push of a button even to Melbourne, Canberra, Albury and Melbourne.

Assuming each truck uses $1,000 of diesel per trip you can charge $2,000 per container so ten trains of 100 containers is $2,000,000 per night.
As nothing touches with SC maglev there would be a growing return as trucks and planes suffer from inflation.

Using this link https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Spe ... _329974145 and there is 1,000 passengers per train then and it takes 1 hour to go the 700 km then 1,000 seats = 1000x100x700=70 MWh @ $100 /MW =$7,000  in my calculations.

This other link says the maximum power usage of 740,000 kW https://scmaglev.jr-central-global.com/faq/ it still stacks up but I am unsure how much or what speed of the container train.

Sometimes you can deter enemies with a bigger stick and sometimes you can trade with them so they have to be nice like Germany tried to do with Russia before Trump stopped nord 2.

It may be possible to order the 60 TBM worth $200,000,000 each off China to drive Sydney to Melbourne in five years and save us spending money on subs although most Aussies prefer to buy the subs I think.

They have been testing the Japanese SC maglev since 1997 for 4,300,000 kilometres and now with inductive power it no longer needs an on board power supply but I still think it needs an overnight container train to make a growing return and eliminate trucks and planes between Sydney and Melbourne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZX9T0kWb4Y

So how and where are they going to load/unload these overnight containers?

I suppose build an IMT within the depot confines, but these might not be in suitable locations.

boronia wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 3:45 pm So how and where are they going to load/unload these overnight containers?

I suppose build an IMT within the depot confines, but these might not be in suitable locations.

During the day a lot of palletised freight is picked up either end with smaller six wheel trucks and transferred onto B doubles, triples and A doubles for the trip on the Hume where the reverse is done 10 hours and $2,000,000 worth of diesel later.

A Japanese SC maglev only uses $7,000 of power each trip so instead of transferring to big trucks it would be transferred to containers which would then be taken to a freight siding on the outskirts each end.

I do believe that to eliminate complicated points the front wheels can be made steerable to enter these freight sidings.

The distance between Sydney and Melbourne is too close for rail but too far for trucks and this is the email to Charles Howarth howarth.charles@herrenknecht.com

There are 700,000 trucks per year between Sydney and Melbourne using $1,000 of diesel each trip but if there is an overnight container train that reduces the daytime fare below planes it will make a growing return.

Japan wants to showcase their SC maglev and Australia is ideal but it has to have an overnight container train to make a profit and this requires a larger 14 meter diameter tunnel with just a single track in a single tunnel to allow 700 km/h.

As the 14 metre diameter tunnels would be deep in hard rock, I suggest Herrenknecht double shield Tunnel Boring Machines that would be designed in Germany, produced in China and first time assembled on site in Australia to save time and money.

To avoid unreliable surface drilling they need to have provision to probe ahead and predrive grout where needed, although they would be top of the range, the economy of scale should bring the 60 needed to have a return in five years below $40m each or total of $2.4b total.

When Australia orders the TBM perhaps China will tone down its aggression especially as the new second in command needs to sell high value product.

At 78 I am past my use by date so it is up to younger people to decide on if Canberra is connected with last century steel rail or next century Japanese SC maglev which can be profitable connecting Sydney to Melbourne and having a growing return on investment in 5 years.

Many people accuse me of being a dreamer but I have 25 years experience and interest in transport of freight and people with 25 years experience and interest in underground and I can say China will never go fast with only one cm clearance where the Japanese SC maglev has gone the equivalent of 82 times around the world with passengers.

As Albo said we want to trade with China but will not get pushed around and perhaps I am wrong but by buying 60 Chinese TBM they will settle down.

So good luck with whatever you decide.

China can now build 16m diameter TBM that would drive Parrahub to Melbourne in two years with 60 TBM from 30 launch site compounds.

East Timorese FIFO teams earning $5,000 for two weeks work, living in simple shipping containers in compounds going home as soon as they do their 200m.

At $200m each it would balance out trade with them for two years and the customer calls the shots.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202306/1292357.shtml