Sydney Metro West announced

[mandonov]

Several reasons:

• The exisiting SOP station has immense value as a dedicated events facility that can move tens of thousands of people in only a couple of hours. The Metro will simply add to that great capacity.
• It's perpendicular to Metro West's corridor.
• They need a large site for retrieval of the TBM's that are to be launched from Westmead and The Bays. SOP is halfway between the two and easily accessible by road during construction.
• It's much more difficult, expensive, and risky to have to construct in a working railway environment compared to a blank slate hole in the ground.
• It increases the catchment to the south of the exisiting station to serve the growing residential population and other venues.
• What worked well for the CityRail network in 2000 doesn't necessarily translate to what will work well for a metro in 2030.

I can see some value in retaining a regular T7 service to Lidcombe in that it may be a faster way for people at that station to get to the CBD or Parramatta, and it could be worth maintaining that connection to Metro West for the remnant T3 to access.

[ed24]

In an ideal world I'd like T7 extended under Lidcombe and connected to the Bankstown line to make use of some of the disconnected parts of the line after the metro conversion.

[Geo101]

I think they are trying to achieve a few things, without the bill, although I struggle to see how the bill will be cheap...

My comments here are totally armchair, I have no background in rail planning whatsoever !!

The Westmead location, well all I can assume is that it is intended to both relieve and funnel peak hour traffic to the CBD. I'm assuming that from Westmead to the city won't be 20 minutes, but if it's 25, then I suppose that's a good outcome for those from the outer west. If they don't extend the Metro West in the near future, at least they will get a seat at Westmead to Martin Place, and if need be, a relatively easy connection to the CBD south via a transfer if that location at Hunter Street/Martin Place is chosen with both the existing city circle network and the new Sydney Metro City & Southwest connections.

The Paramatta location, well I suppose anywhere north of the existing station isn't going to be a dud. I'm totally confused why it doesn't include some sort of walkway/connectivity to the train/bus interchange, maybe that will happen in later planning stages?

I feel there might be a gap between Parramatta and Olympic Park (station-wise) long into the future. I can sort of see why they are reluctant to build a station at either Rydalmere or Carmilia until they work out the growth in these area's, and wanting the new metro to be seen as an express service. No-ones going to change unless it's significantly quicker or convenient.

Olympic Park is a given, not sure there would be any other locations which would be better or worse than what they have planned? It's probably purely a $ decision on the requirement to build it, and not having to muck about trying to integrate it into the existing station. As a transfer location, I think it's pointless even worrying about that.

The North Strathfield station is a bit of a requirement, it just needs to be done to encourage usage of the new line into the city. I suspect since it's solely going to be an interchange point, and the tunnel will be going in that direction anyway, no-one will dispute the location. It's the new Epping with a twist? Can't see many transferring as a habit, but during peak, I suspect those who want to go the CBD north will jump ship onto the new metro.

Burwood North I have no idea, I'm happy to hear why this is a good choice?

Five Dock I can see the benefit. Currently ever man and their dog in that region gets on a bus and counts the time away as it does the dog-legged action towards the CBD on the existing congested road network? Again I'm happy to hear why this is a good choice

The Bays Precinct? Yep, that is totally out of my league

The CBD location? Well, I'm no civil engineer, but the chances of that ending up at Central station after the Sydney Metro City & Southwest lobotomy would seem to be an engineering feat... I suspect the idea is to avoid that and use the connectivity at Martin Place?

[Geo101]

I'm actually surprised they choose a new Olympic Park Station, rather than converting the existing one into Metro, and get rid of the Lidcombe Shuttle.

The new Metro will connect Olympic Park to Parramatta, the CBD and the new North Stratfield interchange. Although it looks like a bit of a "stranding" of the existing infrastructure, I feel that the numbers using it will become almost non-existent for most of the week.

They are probably best of leaving it the way it is until some longer-term planning (or expenditure) becomes available to do something with it?

[mandonov]

From the full Scoping Report:





And The Bays is purely to service the new district that will be built and centred around the White Bay power station and enabled by the metro. Serving the Balmain Peninsula or Victoria Rd buses are secondary objectives.

[moa999]

No doubt, but I suspect a Bays Precinct station would be popular with those living in Balmain and working in the NE/E of the CBD

[tonyp]

I find the interchange provisions at Westmead very poor, though admittedly vague at this stage. I would have thought they would use both Railway Pde and Alexandra Ave for the tram on one side and the metro on the other (and buses on one or the other) to create a covered plaza over all four modes for easy interchange across the suburban station. However I gather the tram is now going to terminate in the exposed middle of Hawkesbury Rd and the metro to exit onto Hawkesbury Rd (exposed walk over the railway bridge) and everybody is to be battling weather and traffic crossings to interchange. Surely this is going to receive more detailed design attention, it sounds terrible at present.

Burwood location I can understand. This important regional centre will finally be served by stopping trains instead of being bypassed. The Parramatta Rd location will draw development in Burwood Rd northwards and enlarge the centre.

Olympic Park will at least double the train capacity at this location. The existing station is specifically designed for the characteristics of double deck trains, not metro. The metro station will do the same job if they ensure that the platform (or side platforms) are wide enough to enable ample holding areas. They should be able to move 40,000 per hour per direction through there and, combined with the suburban station, should be able to move a major event crowd of 50-60,000 in an hour, something that hasn't been achieved in Sydney since the former trams moved similar-sized crowds at Moore Park and Randwick.

[mandonov]

I find the interchange provisions at Westmead very poor, though admittedly vague at this stage. I would have thought they would use both Railway Pde and Alexandra Ave for the tram on one side and the metro on the other (and buses on one or the other) to create a covered plaza over all four modes for easy interchange across the suburban station. However I gather the tram is now going to terminate in the exposed middle of Hawkesbury Rd and the metro to exit onto Hawkesbury Rd (exposed walk over the railway bridge) and everybody is to be battling weather and traffic crossings to interchange. Surely this is going to receive more detailed design attention, it sounds terrible at present.

The light rail is an already approved and under construction project, it's terminus will remain at the corner of Hawkesbury Rd and Railway Pde unless they decide to change it in ten years to better connect with the metro. I thought they would have acquired the rest of that block to Ashley Lane for a more direct connection to the light rail, but no.

[tonyp]

The light rail is an already approved and under construction project, it's terminus will remain at the corner of Hawkesbury Rd and Railway Pde unless they decide to change it in ten years to better connect with the metro. I thought they would have acquired the rest of that block to Ashley Lane for a more direct connection to the light rail, but no.

It seems like the best way to salvage it now is to extend the tram south across the railway bridge to stop outside the metro entrance - but too late if it's already underway. If they're going to demolish part of the block at the corner of Hawkesbury and Alexandra, they would have the opportunity to create an off-road space for the tram terminus. Then nobody would have to cross roads or walk distances and the suburban station would be just across Alexandra. As it stands, everybody has significant walks out in the open (plus signalled pedestrian crossings) to interchange with anything. The only modes that will have it sweet, located next to each other, will be the suburban rail and bus, as at present. Sometimes the planners get it right, sometimes they fall on their face.

Here is the bleak prospect metro riders will face on emerging from the station. The tram terminus is in the distance to the left, Westmead Station and busway buses to the right.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.808 ... 312!8i6656

[Transtopic]

I've been trying to upload diagrams of station locations for Labor's original 2009 West Metro proposal for comparison with the current scheme, but so far without success. However, I'll do my best to describe them.

In the case of Westmead, the platforms were proposed to be constructed under Darcy Rd at the intersection with Hawkesbury Rd on the northern side of the existing station. Although it would not be as close to the existing station as now proposed, it would be adjacent to the proposed light rail terminus. Stabling sidings were proposed beyond the station under Darcy Rd towards the intersection with Mons Rd.

At Parramatta, the station platforms were much closer to the existing station under Civic Place, which would have allowed for direct underground pedestrian links providing a more convenient interchange. That's unlikely with the metro platforms now being located further north under Horwood Place.

A station was proposed at Camellia at the intersection of James Ruse Drive and Grand Ave North, just west of and at 90 degrees to the existing Camellia Station. It then proceeded further towards Silverwater, where a station was proposed on the northern side of Carnarvon St under existing industrial buildings between Silverwater Rd and Wetherill St.

The line then swung south-east towards Sydney Olympic Park with the proposed station under Olympic Boulevard at the intersection with Dawn Fraser Ave adjacent to and at 90 degrees to the existing station.

From Sydney Olympic Park, the original proposal diverges from the current alignment to North Strathfield, to Strathfield adjacent to the existing station. It then proceeded to a station at Burwood partly under Burwood Park and adjacent to the Burwood Westfield Shopping Centre, which is south of the current proposal, which is at the intersection of Parramatta and Burwood Rds.

It then continued to Five Dock, with the station proposed just to the south of the current proposal, continuing on a totally different alignment to the CBD via Leichhardt and Camperdown, instead of the Bays Precinct.

My take on this confirmation of some station locations, particularly Westmead and Parramatta, is that the government is back peddling on its spurious claim that Metro West will relieve congestion on the Western Line. The proposed Westmead and Parramatta metro station locations are hardly conducive to creating any incentive to interchange to the metro for an allegedly faster journey to the CBD. Much will depend on where your destination is in the CBD. West Metro will certainly add significant capacity from Westmead/Parramatta to the CBD, but it will do bugger all for the most overcrowded parts of the Western and Richmond Lines from the outer west, where there are limited opportunities to increase services to meet the demand because of the lack of train paths through to the CBD. Even if services from the outer west were increased, it's just not practicable to terminate them at Westmead or Parramatta for interchange to the metro. They haven't thought it through, up until now at least.

The government is still wrestling with the dilemma of whether the West Metro should be all things to all people in providing a fast service from Parramatta to the CBD or maximising its potential patronage with multiple stations along a new rail corridor. It can't be both. In focusing on a 20 minute journey time as the defining parameter, there's an incentive to limit the number of intermediate stations along the route, when it should be the opposite. It's not necessary, when an alternative option for a fast express service with further upgrades already exists on the current network. The government should drop its focus on providing a fast service on the metro between Parramatta and the CBD and instead maximise its potential catchment by providing more stations along the route.

In that respect, I suggest that at least three more stations should be added at Camellia, Silverwater and Lilyfield/North Leichhardt and Pyrmont should also be included. I can see no rational reason why the dog leg to Rydalmere should be part of the route when it will be serviced by the light rail. I'm even sceptical of the need for the route to go via North Strathfield, when Strathfield as a major rail junction, a much larger centre, provides interchange with multiple lines.

I also have some reservations about the location of the CBD station/s, but I'll leave that for another day.

[grog]

It’s definitely not true that you couldn’t add services west of Westmead and Parramatta. In fact you could double the current service level easily. You could run a full 40tph through a combination of extending and adding current Parramatta T2 services and adding and T5 services.

T1 could be 20tph fast train from Penrith on a single track pair.

The remaining track pair could run the Richmond branch and local services from St Mary’s and Blacktown, with half going all stops to the city on T2 and half to Leppington via Liverpool on T5. People on those T2 and T5 trains could change to T1 or Metro for a faster trip to the CBD if that is their destination.

[J_Busworth]

With a high enough frequency, three extra stations shouldn't make any difference to the attractiveness of the service. At a frequency of every 4 or 5 minutes, a travel time of 25 minutes vs 20 minutes isn't going to make much difference. Its only when you have low frequencies, closer to every 10 or 15 minutes, the extra travel time really does matter. Thats why its important that this line has a very high frequency. Even if the travel time to Parramatta is 20 minutes, a low frequency will make it longer for most.

They really should add stations at Camellia, Leichhardt North and Pyrmont in my opinion. Cost would be the only prohibitive factor. I would also argue that they need more than one station in the CBD, with maybe one at Martin Place and another one say at the corner of College/Liverpool/Oxford/Wentworth (which in my head I would call Memorial), before sending the line southeast along the ridgeline.

But what do I know, I'm only an armchair transport planner

[tonyp]

Talking up the market begins!

Two new western Sydney Metro West stations to push up house prices

News Corp Australia
22 OCT 2019

The Metro West rail stations have been revealed. Picture: David Swift.

Further development of the proposed Western Sydney Metro Line to include seven new train stations — one in Westmead and one in Parramatta — will increase both quality of life and potentially property prices for western Sydney residents.

The State Government said the project will slash travel times between Parramatta and the CBD by 20 minutes by the time it opens to the public in 2030.


NSW Minister for Transport and Roads Andrew Constance and NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian announcing the stations. (AAP Image/Joel Carrett)

REA Group chief economist Nerida Conisbee said the fact that the development will cut down commuting time to the city by 20 minutes is already having an effect on local property prices.

“I know how much people love a good transport link, apart from the higher levels of property market activity and price growth,” she said.

“We normally see a lift in pricing immediately after an announcement is made and people living near the train line will probably see a big lift in the value of their homes.

“The announcement is significant because it will practically halve travel time for commuters between Parramatta and the CBD … It is a great announcement for Sydney as people’s commute times are pretty extreme already.”

Ming Shang - Sidoti Property
Property owners are tipped to benefit. Picture:Justin Lloyd

Broderick Wright of Ray White said the development concerns for local residents, businesses and property prices will be similar to those felt during the first phase of the Parramatta to Westmead light rail construction.

Mr Wright said Parramatta has already become a city unto itself but big business still has a connection to the CBD and such a move will provide an easy commute for workers from, major areas of growth.

“The largest demographic of buyers in North Parramatta are young couples that were renting near the city but have moved west because they could not afford to buy their first asset,” he said.

Traffic
The transport link is set to reduce traffic.

“Since the opening of the tunnel from Ashfield to Parramatta the transformation of traffic flow has been an absolute game changer … I drove from Anzac Parade to James Ruse Drive in Rouse Hill in 17 minutes and to do something similar with citybound public transport is amazing.

“But you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette and at the end of the day progress outweighs the pain of change – look at suburbs like Castle Hill and what the metro has done to property prices.

“The greater good will be that property prices in Parramatta and Westmead will increase.”

McGrath agent Frank Bartolone said once the rail network is complete, those living around Westmead and Parramatta will have comparable travel times to the CBD to those in Gladesville and Five Dock.

“It will make a vast improvement and make travelling convenient and for commuters, productive,” he said.

“If you look at the road network, a lot of the problem is gridlock, even with freeway extensions.”

NEW SOUTH WALES NEWS SYDNEY WEST

[Transtopic]

It’s definitely not true that you couldn’t add services west of Westmead and Parramatta. In fact you could double the current service level easily. You could run a full 40tph through a combination of extending and adding current Parramatta T2 services and adding and T5 services.

T1 could be 20tph fast train from Penrith on a single track pair.

The remaining track pair could run the Richmond branch and local services from St Mary’s and Blacktown, with half going all stops to the city on T2 and half to Leppington via Liverpool on T5. People on those T2 and T5 trains could change to T1 or Metro for a faster trip to the CBD if that is their destination.

I've been waiting for you to regurgitate this furphy grog. Your proposition is predicated on the basis of more interchange being forced upon commuters from the Outer West and Richmond Lines to reach the CBD.

I agree that there is the potential to increase services west of Parramatta, but there is limited line capacity to continue through to the CBD without further track amplification. In the AM peak at Parramatta on Platform 1 (Main Line) it is already operating at the maximum frequency of 20tph (16tph Emu Plains/Richmond plus 4tph BMT Intercity). At Strathfield, the 16tph Western Line Suburban services merge with the 4tph on the Suburban tracks from Epping in the peak, reaching its maximum capacity of 20tph through to the CBD and North Shore Line. The additional 4tph semi-express services from Hornsby during peak hours since the conversion of the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link to metro have had to be diverted to Sydney Terminal on the Main Line tracks because of the lack of paths on the Suburban tracks.

The Suburban track through Platform 3 at Parramatta in the AM peak is grossly underutilised with 6tph (4tph Parramatta starters plus 2tph Cumberland Line), no doubt due in part to the fact that T2 services terminate and start from there. However, even if you increased services from the west to meet demand, there are limited paths for them to continue through to the CBD along the T2 Inner West Line, which would be a much slower service with a mostly all stations stopping pattern. There are currently 8tph from the South Line with a semi-express service plus 4tph from Parramatta and 2tph from Ashfield in the AM peak, a total of 14tph, which leaves little room for additional services with the mixed stopping pattern. Probably a maximum of 16tph at best.

Therefore, in order to realise the full potential capacity of the Western Line dual track pair of 40tph without amplification to the CBD, more services would have to be either terminated at Parramatta, if in fact practicable, or diverted along the Cumberland Line requiring interchange to continue through to the CBD, which wouldn't be popular, particularly for Richmond Line commuters who would no longer have a direct service to the CBD.

The proposed metro station locations at Westmead and particularly at Parramatta, are hardly conducive to encouraging interchange to the metro for an allegedly faster journey to the CBD. It all depends on their destination in the CBD. In an ideal world, the cross platform interchange at Chatswood would be preferable, but that's not feasible in this instance.

Sooner or later, the government of the day has to face up to the reality that the metro strategy is not the be and end all of resolving congestion on the existing rail network and address its inadequacies with an acknowledgement that significantly greater investment is needed.

[Transtopic]

Talking up the market begins!

Two new western Sydney Metro West stations to push up house prices

News Corp Australia
22 OCT 2019

The Metro West rail stations have been revealed. Picture: David Swift.

Further development of the proposed Western Sydney Metro Line to include seven new train stations — one in Westmead and one in Parramatta — will increase both quality of life and potentially property prices for western Sydney residents.

The State Government said the project will slash travel times between Parramatta and the CBD by 20 minutes by the time it opens to the public in 2030.


NSW Minister for Transport and Roads Andrew Constance and NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian announcing the stations. (AAP Image/Joel Carrett)

REA Group chief economist Nerida Conisbee said the fact that the development will cut down commuting time to the city by 20 minutes is already having an effect on local property prices.

“I know how much people love a good transport link, apart from the higher levels of property market activity and price growth,” she said.

“We normally see a lift in pricing immediately after an announcement is made and people living near the train line will probably see a big lift in the value of their homes.

“The announcement is significant because it will practically halve travel time for commuters between Parramatta and the CBD … It is a great announcement for Sydney as people’s commute times are pretty extreme already.”

Ming Shang - Sidoti Property
Property owners are tipped to benefit. Picture:Justin Lloyd

Broderick Wright of Ray White said the development concerns for local residents, businesses and property prices will be similar to those felt during the first phase of the Parramatta to Westmead light rail construction.

Mr Wright said Parramatta has already become a city unto itself but big business still has a connection to the CBD and such a move will provide an easy commute for workers from, major areas of growth.

“The largest demographic of buyers in North Parramatta are young couples that were renting near the city but have moved west because they could not afford to buy their first asset,” he said.

Traffic
The transport link is set to reduce traffic.

“Since the opening of the tunnel from Ashfield to Parramatta the transformation of traffic flow has been an absolute game changer … I drove from Anzac Parade to James Ruse Drive in Rouse Hill in 17 minutes and to do something similar with citybound public transport is amazing.

“But you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette and at the end of the day progress outweighs the pain of change – look at suburbs like Castle Hill and what the metro has done to property prices.

“The greater good will be that property prices in Parramatta and Westmead will increase.”

McGrath agent Frank Bartolone said once the rail network is complete, those living around Westmead and Parramatta will have comparable travel times to the CBD to those in Gladesville and Five Dock.

“It will make a vast improvement and make travelling convenient and for commuters, productive,” he said.

“If you look at the road network, a lot of the problem is gridlock, even with freeway extensions.”

NEW SOUTH WALES NEWS SYDNEY WEST

Interesting how they state that travel times will be "slashed BY 20 minutes".

[tonyp]

I guess they're referring to the stopping trains, comparing like with like. Or it's a mistake.

[grog]

I've been waiting for you to regurgitate this furphy grog. Your proposition is predicated on the basis of more interchange being forced upon commuters from the Outer West and Richmond Lines to reach the CBD.

I agree that there is the potential to increase services west of Parramatta, but there is limited line capacity to continue through to the CBD without further track amplification.

....

The Suburban track through Platform 3 at Parramatta in the AM peak is grossly underutilised with 6tph (4tph Parramatta starters plus 2tph Cumberland Line), no doubt due in part to the fact that T2 services terminate and start from there. However, even if you increased services from the west to meet demand, there are limited paths for them to continue through to the CBD along the T2 Inner West Line, which would be a much slower service with a mostly all stations stopping pattern. There are currently 8tph from the South Line with a semi-express service plus 4tph from Parramatta and 2tph from Ashfield in the AM peak, a total of 14tph, which leaves little room for additional services with the mixed stopping pattern. Probably a maximum of 16tph at best.

Therefore, in order to realise the full potential capacity of the Western Line dual track pair of 40tph without amplification to the CBD, more services would have to be either terminated at Parramatta, if in fact practicable, or diverted along the Cumberland Line requiring interchange to continue through to the CBD, which wouldn't be popular, particularly for Richmond Line commuters who would no longer have a direct service to the CBD.

So you acknowledge what I said was true. By using the Cumberland line and T2 you could run 40tph west of Parramatta. Peak loading on T1 is west of Parramatta so that will work well. More people get off at Parramatta than get on, and that will only increase for the existing network once Metro opens. T2 could run 20tph with a single stopping pattern post T3 conversion. People who want a faster journey to the CBD could change services.

There won’t be a capacity issue between Parramatta and the CBD with the Metro in place, so that part is all good. Interchange is sometimes required in a good system, and with high frequencies is easy on passengers.

This will be a great way to support Parramatta with its own radial based system, which will be great for this stage of growth, especially with the loss of parking for the Parramatta Metro station. Parramatta will have rail/light rail from 7 directions, up from 3 today (4 if you count current T5, which I am reluctant to as a 30 minute peak service is inadequate.)

[tonyp]

Parramatta will have rail/light rail from 7 directions, up from 3 today (4 if you count current T5, which I am reluctant to as a 30 minute peak service is inadequate.)

The T Way services to the NW and SW could be added to that as high capacity bus corridors.

[Campbelltown busboy]

This will be a great way to support Parramatta with its own radial based system, which will be great for this stage of growth, especially with the loss of parking for the Parramatta Metro station. Parramatta will have rail/light rail from 7 directions, up from 3 today (4 if you count current T5, which I am reluctant to as a 30 minute peak service is inadequate.)

The government has 4 car M sets running on T5 peak services witch morning are are packed when they depart Glenfield after literally regaining a bigger load then the load that alight and transfer to the T8 airport line services

[grog]

T5 needs to move to a 15 minute headway sooner rather than later. The fact that an extra T5 service starts the day after the T6 line closes shows how tight rolling stock is. Hopefully we see improvements when the 17 new B sets start arriving.

I suspect that a 15 minute T5 service would boost patronage so much that they would need to be 8 car trains.

[Campbelltown busboy]

T5 needs to move to a 15 minute headway sooner rather than later. The fact that an extra T5 service starts the day after the T6 line closes shows how tight rolling stock is. Hopefully we see improvements when the 17 new B sets start arriving.

I suspect that a 15 minute T5 service would boost patronage so much that they would need to be 8 car trains.

Here could be the frequentcy on the T5 30 minutes from Campbelltown or Leppington to Glenfield then it comes to 15 minutes between Glenfield and Seven Hills where the services from Campbelltown would continue to Penrith via Blacktown and the services from Leppington would continue to Schofields via Blacktown

[neilrex]

This metro plan seems to be very underwhelming. Exactly where is the patronage going to come from, to make it worthwhile ?

The idea of people from Penrith or Windsor changing trains to the Metro en masse, to save maybe 2 minutes, was never very convincing, and less convincing now that it is apparent that the T1 to Metro interchange is going to be quite the opposite of "seamless". ( one of my least favourite buzz words ). The only reason I'd do it, is if my CBD destination happened to be closer to the metro station than to Central, Town Hall or Wynyard are. The suggested location, under Hunter St, is banker and lawyer territory and I am not sure how much of that demographic live west of Parramatta.

You can tell it is planned by English people, one entrance per station, lol, in China there would be 4 to 8 entrances per station.

With the arguable exception of Five Dock, it provides no new points to access to the network to reduce vehicle congestion in the entire central metro area.

At Westmead, a fail. This is supposedly a big trip generator. The current station is a km from the further end of the hospitals - further than many people are prepared to be obliged to walk in all weathers. The Metro station will be 100 metres or so, worse. Rather than relocate the Metro station, the obvious solution is to extend the tram to the north end of Hawkesbury Road, surely not that difficult or expensive.

At Parramatta, it is not clear how the Metro will be convenient to use for potential passengers feeding to Parramatta by bus.

There are obvious missed opportunities for stations at Camellia and Silverwater. You've save at least 10 minutes getting off the tram from Carlingford, at Camellia, and hopping straight onto the Metro there, than battling on the tram through the lights to Parramatta and then changing and coming right back under Camellia again. That would make the tram much more popular for passengers on the tram from north of the river, including UWS Rydalmere.

The station at White Bay seems to be intentionally proposed to be as inaccessible as possible.

At the CBD, I'd extend the line to terminate under Taylor Square. This would simplify operation of the CBD station, moving the faffing around with reversing trains to a less busy location. It would improve access from high-density Taylor Square Darlinghurst area to the CBD. It would improve access to and from the Taylor Square area to the rest of the metro and train network, which is currently quite difficult and annoying for both incoming and outgoing transport to/from that area. A line to Taylor Square could potentially be extended further, later.

Furthermore, if I lived in the Eastern Suburbs and worked at or near Parramatta, I'd probably be driving to work. If I lived somewhere that I could easily get to Taylor Square by bus ( along Anzac parade or Oxford Street ) and then hop on the Metro and go to Parramatta, that would be a considerably better scenario than the existing PT options which are less attractive. That facilitates more contraflow traffic which improves the economics of the Metro.

[Transtopic]

So you acknowledge what I said was true. By using the Cumberland line and T2 you could run 40tph west of Parramatta. Peak loading on T1 is west of Parramatta so that will work well. More people get off at Parramatta than get on, and that will only increase for the existing network once Metro opens. T2 could run 20tph with a single stopping pattern post T3 conversion. People who want a faster journey to the CBD could change services.

Yes, but with the qualification that there are limited paths available for the extra services west of Parramatta to run direct to the CBD without further track amplification, which makes it impracticable, or forcing commuters to interchange to either existing T1 services or the new metro to continue through to the CBD. These extra services from the Western and Richmond Lines can't terminate or start from Parramatta, so what's the point of running mostly empty T5 services in the morning peak and the reverse in the evening to and from Liverpool or Leppington? They should be able to run direct to the CBD, where most commuters are destined, with further track amplification. That doesn't mean that T5 services shouldn't be increased to at least 4tph, but not as a solution to resolve congestion issues on T1 to the CBD.

There have been proposals around for years now, under governments of both persuasions, to run all Richmond Line services along the T5 corridor, forcing interchange for those destined for the CBD. The plan has never been implemented and you have to ask the question why? I'll tell you why, because it would cause a political storm by denying commuters from the Richmond Line and even some from the Western Line, direct access into the CBD without having to interchange. If and when the Metro Northwest is extended to Schofields on the Richmond Line, this may somewhat alleviate the community opposition, but still require interchange to reach the CBD. Tonyp, please restrain yourself from getting on your hobby horse about comparative travel times of Sydney Trains and the metro, because that's not what we're discussing here.

It's unrealistic to suggest that T2 could be run at 20tph with a single stopping pattern as it currently exists. It would deny South Line commuters their semi-express and faster services through the inner suburbs, which they are entitled to as much as those on the Northern and Western Lines. As I mentioned previously, T2 could at best be run at 16tph with the current mixed stopping pattern, which doesn't leave much room for additional, albeit slower, services direct from the west to the CBD.

The proposed Metro station locations at Westmead and Parramatta aren't exactly designed to create any incentive for commuters from the Outer Western and Richmond Lines to interchange to the metro for an allegedly faster journey to the CBD. The proposed Parramatta metro station is just too far away from the existing station to even consider it as a convenient interchange option. Even Westmead as proposed is a less than desirable location as an interchange hub. If they were seriously proposing that the Metro West will relieve congestion on the existing T1 Line, then at the very least the Westmead metro platforms should be located below the existing platforms, with escalators connecting with an underground concourse, similar to the situation at Epping. That's the next best option other than having cross platform transfers.

The only way that capacity constraints can be addressed on the T1 Western and Richmond Lines is to construct an express tunnel from Parramatta into the CBD, for their exclusive use. It will free up paths on the existing lines through the CBD for the Northern and South Lines as well as enabling the Inner West Line to realise its full potential of 20/24tph with a single all stations operating pattern from say Homebush or a potential extension to Sydney Olympic Park.

The Metro West proposal can stand in isolation as a worthwhile addition to Sydney's rail network, servicing a new Inner West corridor between Parramatta and the CBD, but let's not pretend that it resolves the broader issues of congestion on the existing Sydney Trains network.

[tonyp]

At Westmead, a fail. This is supposedly a big trip generator. The current station is a km from the further end of the hospitals - further than many people are prepared to be obliged to walk in all weathers. The Metro station will be 100 metres or so, worse. Rather than relocate the Metro station, the obvious solution is to extend the tram to the north end of Hawkesbury Road, surely not that difficult or expensive.

The tram does run up the full length of Hawkesbury Rd to the Childrens Hospital. In general the hospital is well-served by both the tram and the T Way buses. Much of it is also within 500 metres walking distance of the trains. The two train stations and the busway stops are right next to each other. I'm more concerned about the distance of the tram terminus. They should have turned it into Railway Pde or across Alexandra Ave. In general, however, it's premature to comment on arrangements at Westmead as we haven't seen any plans, only a vague written description. They've done quite well in designing interchanges on the NW line, it would be out of character for them to fluff it at Westmead.

Tonyp, please restrain yourself from getting on your hobby horse about comparative travel times of Sydney Trains and the metro, because that's not what we're discussing here.

Mum's the word.

[grog]

It's unrealistic to suggest that T2 could be run at 20tph with a single stopping pattern as it currently exists. It would deny South Line commuters their semi-express and faster services through the inner suburbs, which they are entitled to as much as those on the Northern and Western Lines. As I mentioned previously, T2 could at best be run at 16tph with the current mixed stopping pattern, which doesn't leave much room for additional, albeit slower, services direct from the west to the CBD.

The semi-express from Liverpool doesn’t really exist via T2 in peak anyway. Yes on paper 6 or 7 stops are skipped, but it’s only scheduled to take about 3 minutes less than it would if it stopped at every station. Out of peak is much better, but there is no reason that couldn’t stay in the future since that’s not where the capacity constraints are. Current off peak Liverpool to Central travel time is 55 minutes, during peak it is 60-62 minutes. Make no mistake that this timetable is preparing the ground for a single 20tph stopping pattern after the T3 conversation frees up the City Circle.

The proposed Metro station locations at Westmead and Parramatta aren't exactly designed to create any incentive for commuters from the Outer Western and Richmond Lines to interchange to the metro for an allegedly faster journey to the CBD. The proposed Parramatta metro station is just too far away from the existing station to even consider it as a convenient interchange option. Even Westmead as proposed is a less than desirable location as an interchange hub. If they were seriously proposing that the Metro West will relieve congestion on the existing T1 Line, then at the very least the Westmead metro platforms should be located below the existing platforms, with escalators connecting with an underground concourse, similar to the situation at Epping. That's the next best option other than having cross platform transfers.

Epping might be directly under the platforms, but that meant that it had to be mined rather than cut and cover, and so is deeper than it had to be. Epping has a platform to platform vertical separation of about 35m.

According to the Sydney Metro West scoping document the escalation of Westmead will be 22-32m. The 22m end of the site is at the bottom of the site, which is about the current track form level for the Western Line. The 32m end of the site is up at Hawkesbury Rd, which is where the street height is and also concourse height for any transfer.

Once you take into account Metro track form and platform heights, you would have a 30m of vertical separation up to street level, which would also be the level of the transfer concourse at the lower end of the site, and then ~5m stairs down to Sydney Trains platforms. Pretty much the same as Epping, and only possible due to shallower depth from being side-by-side rather than being mined below the platforms.