New Country Trains

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
neilrex
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by neilrex »

J_Busworth wrote:
neilrex wrote:what is the supposed distinction between "intercity" and "regional" supposed to be, here ?
I think the distinction will be that the Intercity trains will be all economy and lack a buffet car whilst the Regional Trains will be two class with the buffet. Essentially the Intercity trains are replacing the Endeavours, the short Regional the Xplorer and the long Regional the XPT

Got it ! Thanks. So Dungog and Bomaderry are cities and Brisbane and Melbourne are not.


Sick of the mindless importation of irrelevant britishisms.
Glen
Posts: 3365
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Glen »

Linto63 wrote:Were built when the extra XPT stock was built to extend the Riverina Express to Melbourne. Was part of the backtracking by the Greiner government after it took a bath in an election after pruning the network including removing the last sleeper trains.
So they interpreted that sleeper cars mattered then.

I wonder if they do now, many years later?
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by jpp42 »

Was any consideration given to dual-mode trains that can operate on the overhead wiring within the metropolitan area? I realise that 1500 DC may not be the ideal voltage for this and additional electrical equipment will add weight. Still, it enables a bit of "greening" since you could ultimately supply the power from green sources if electrified. And the electric network in NSW isn't exactly small - Dubbo trains operating on overhead power from Lithgow or northern trains operating from Broadmeadow, makes up a significant portion of the route miles. What would be required to make this happen in NSW? Places like New York City have used dual-mode trains for decades.
Last edited by jpp42 on Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: New Country Trains

Post by tonyp »

neilrex wrote: Got it ! Thanks. So Dungog and Bomaderry are cities and Brisbane and Melbourne are not.

Sick of the mindless importation of irrelevant britishisms.
I've been onto that one for years - I still refuse to call them intercitys and call them interurbans which describes exactly what they are. The British actually use "intercity" to refer to services between major long-distance cities. I have a vague memory that this was the case here too when the XPT started but some noob (or committee more likely) in Transport decided to grab the name for interurban services. Meanwhile the Victorians subsequently adopted the "interurban" description from NSW for their interurban trains.

Newcastle-Lithgow-Nowra are actually the rough outer commuting limits of the greater Sydney conurbation, that's why the term interurban was so appropriate. "Intercity" is not a daily commuting concept, it is long-distance travel.
Glen
Posts: 3365
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Glen »

jpp42 wrote:Was any consideration given to dual-mode trains that can operate on the overhead wiring within the metropolitan area? I realise that 1500 DC may not be the ideal voltage for this and additional electrical equipment will add weight. Still, it enables a bit of "greening" since you could ultimately supply the power from green sources if electrified. And the electric network in NSW isn't exactly small - Dubbo trains operating on overhead power from Lithgow or northern trains operating from Broadmeadow, makes up a significant portion of the route miles.
You'd probably achieve more greening if you asked why freight trains are no longer electrically hauled under wires.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: New Country Trains

Post by boronia »

Looks like this will see the end of loco-hauled trains, with XPT replacements being DERCs.

If Dubbo was to be the maintenance base solely for XPT replacements, it would be fairly easy to roster workings to get a regular turnover through the depot. But if all the order is to be maintained there, it looks like a lot of empty running Sydney-Dubbo?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Bus 400
Posts: 984
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:23 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Bus 400 »

boronia wrote:Looks like this will see the end of loco-hauled trains, with XPT replacements being DERCs.

If Dubbo was to be the maintenance base solely for XPT replacements, it would be fairly easy to roster workings to get a regular turnover through the depot. But if all the order is to be maintained there, it looks like a lot of empty running Sydney-Dubbo?
The Dubbo Maintenance Depot EIS mentioned 2 passenger trains leaving Dubbo a day & a dead running train around midnight.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Linto63 »

Glen wrote:So they interpreted that sleeper cars mattered then.
IIRC after the cutbacks including withdrawal of the last sleepers, the Nationals suffered a few northern NSW seat losses in the 1990 federal election, and the cutting back of the rail network was deemed a key reason. Hence in the name of self interest, the state government decided to introduce sleepers on the XPT services and the Xplorers.
boronia wrote:If Dubbo was to be the maintenance base solely for XPT replacements, it would be fairly easy to roster workings to get a regular turnover through the depot. But if all the order is to be maintained there, it looks like a lot of empty running Sydney-Dubbo?
Having the maintenance centre anywhere but near the network's hub makes no sense. Yes there will be the ability to rotate the long distance stock to and from Dubbo for planned maintenance through the roster cycle, but the short distance stock will need to be worked empty. Any set that goes bang and is deemed to need work at base, will most likely have to be taken to Sydney, then to Dubbo so this will add another day to how long it is out of traffic for.

All for trying to promote growth in the regions, but there already is a trained workforce in Sydney, many of whom will no longer have jobs. The whole Dubbo things appears to be done purely for political rather than practical reasons.
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by jpp42 »

The Dubbo Maintenance Depot EIS mentioned 2 passenger trains leaving Dubbo a day & a dead running train around midnight.
I guess the midnight train could be the "Bathurst Bullet" running empty from Bathurst to Dubbo? That would be a way to cycle the short haul cars through Dubbo without too much dead running.
moa999
Posts: 2923
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by moa999 »

boronia wrote:Looks like this will see the end of loco-hauled trains, with XPT replacements being DERCs.
Interestingly in Germany, the DERCs are getting replaced by battery electric with an off-wire range of up to 150km.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/tra ... stion.html

Obviously distance is a problem in Australia, but a similar product would possibly work on the Hunter lines.
Last edited by moa999 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
BroadGauge
Posts: 3740
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:20 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Car
Location: NSW

Re: New Country Trains

Post by BroadGauge »

moa999 wrote:Interestingly in Germany, the DERCs are getting replaced by battery electric with an off-wire range of up to 150km.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/tra ... stion.html
Those sorts of new technologies, at least at this stage, aren't remotely operationally practical or efficient in performing their actual purpose, although just like the wind farms (for electricity generation) their builders try to pretend that they are because there's big money in these sorts of things.

They're just something that's been designed to appease the "requirements" stated by the ideologically obsessed "global warming" crowd. I think we'll be seeing diesel traction for a while yet ;)
User avatar
BroadGauge
Posts: 3740
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:20 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Car
Location: NSW

Re: New Country Trains

Post by BroadGauge »

So according to this video, which came out yesterday, the new regional trains will have pantographs so they can operate using overhead power within the electrified area:



I wonder if the intercity variants will have this as well? It would seem a bit wasteful to have so much extra equipment fitted just to save a bit of diesel over such huge distances as Campbelltown to Macarthur... or Newcastle Interchange to Hamilton.

:twisted:
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Admin _ Please note - it is unnecessary to fully quote immediate previous post especially where it contains photos.

It will cutdown on the diesel wasted while trains are siting at Campbelltown idoling for anytime up to 45 minutes a time depending on the timetable on the day of operation
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Fleet Lists »

Just to stop some confusion - these new trains will not operate on the Intercity network such as the Blue Mountains, Central Coast/Newcastle and the South Coast. The variants mentioned here would operate on such services as Campbelltown to Goulburn and from Newcastle on the Hunter line. So the question is still valid.
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: New Country Trains

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown to Goulburn and Newcastle to Scone and Dungog are part of the "Intercity" (interurban) network.

So if the trains will only operate these sectors, why would they need pantographs and a complex hybrid traction setup at all?
User avatar
Daniel
Administrator
Posts: 7062
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:03 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Mercedes-Benz O405 / CC '510'
Location: Sutherland Shire

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Daniel »

This is in relation to the XPT replacements, which are due ahead of the Endeavour/Explorer replacements.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Linto63 »

I believe all will be built from the same platform, presumably a variation of the CAF Civity that is available in BMU, DMU and EMU form, with different interiors for short and long haul much like is the case with the Endeavours and Xplorers.

While there is not much scope to use electric traction on the Newcastle to Dungog/Muswellbrook, Campbelltown to Goulburn or Kiama to Bomaderry services aside from eliminating the need to have diesel engines kicking over during layovers, the Endeavours also operate longer distance services under the wires; the Bathurst Bullet from Central to Lithgow (although I believe the wires remain in situ, but probably not serviceable, to Bowenfels) and on Southern Highlands services from Central to Macarthur.

With heavy maintenance to be undertaken at Dubbo, there will also be an increase in positioning workings to and from Broadmeadow and Kiama that will operate under the wires through to Lithgow.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Fleet Lists »

Also worth looking at the latest Transport for NSW article on this dated today https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... ional-rail
and the bimodal fact sheet https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... 202019.pdf
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Fleet Lists »

Linto63 wrote:I believe all will be built from the same platform, presumably a variation of the CAF Civity that is available in BMU, DMU and EMU form, with different interiors for short and long haul much like is the case with the Endeavours and Xplorers.

While there is not much scope to use electric traction on the Newcastle to Dungog/Muswellbrook, Campbelltown to Goulburn or Kiama to Bomaderry services aside from eliminating the need to have diesel engines kicking over during layovers, the Endeavours also operate longer distance services under the wires; the Bathurst Bullet from Central to Lithgow (although I believe the wires remain in situ, but probably not serviceable, to Bowenfels) and on Southern Highlands services from Central to Macarthur.

With heavy maintenance to be undertaken at Dubbo, there will also be an increase in positioning workings to and from Broadmeadow and Kiama that will operate under the wires through to Lithgow.
It will provide the potential to operate these services all the way from Sydney rather than have to change trains during the trips concerned as increased services will be needed in the future.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
BroadGauge
Posts: 3740
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:20 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Car
Location: NSW

Re: New Country Trains

Post by BroadGauge »

Fleet Lists wrote:It will provide the potential to operate these services all the way from Sydney rather than have to change trains during the trips concerned as increased services will be needed in the future.
Pity that they're only buying 10 of the intercity sets to replace 14 Endeavours! Not sure how they could maintain the current level of service, let alone add any extra services, unless they're planning on no longer withdrawing all Endeavour sets.
FAQ at https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/regional-rail wrote:How many trains are in the new fleet? The new regional fleet will comprise 117 new carriages forming:

• 10 regional intercity trains (30 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 9 short regional trains (27 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 10 long regional trains (60 carriages in 6 car sets).
Before the first person replies with "yes but they are 3 cars not 2 so less sets are needed", do remember that there is only one trip on the whole network per day operated as a 4-car Endeavour, being one Southern Highlands service in each direction. So unless the plan is to reduce frequency and squash people into bigger but less frequent trains, I can't see how they would need fewer sets.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote:It will provide the potential to operate these services all the way from Sydney rather than have to change trains during the trips concerned as increased services will be needed in the future.
Not with less trains than currently exists, 10 3-car sets vs 14 2-car sets. The only real scope for new services would be services from Maitland or Bomaderry and these would likely only be token once a day jobs.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: New Country Trains

Post by boronia »

Fleet Lists wrote:Just to stop some confusion - these new trains will not operate on the Intercity network such as the Blue Mountains, Central Coast/Newcastle and the South Coast. The variants mentioned here would operate on such services as Campbelltown to Goulburn and from Newcastle on the Hunter line. So the question is still valid.
The Hunter line has its own dedicated newer rolling stock, so I wonder if they would be replaced by this next order?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Fleet Lists »

Good point.
Living in the Shire.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Linto63 »

boronia wrote:The Hunter line has its own dedicated newer rolling stock, so I wonder if they would be replaced by this next order?
Nope, per TfNSW new stock is specifically to replace XPTs, Xplorers and Endeavours only. The Hunter railcars will only be mid-life when the new stock is delivered.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New Country Trains

Post by Fleet Lists »

So The Broadmeadow - Newcastle point made earlier is irrelevant.
Living in the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”