New Country Trains

[Linto63]

So The Broadmeadow - Newcastle point made earlier is irrelevant.

On the assumption that all Hunter line services are operated by Hunter railcars presumably. But there are (or certainly were a year or so ago) still Endeavours working on Hunter services.

[BroadGauge]

On the assumption that all Hunter line services are operated by Hunter railcars presumably. But there are (or certainly were a year or so ago) still Endeavours working on Hunter services.

As far as I'm aware, there are still two Endeavour sets that operate on weekday Hunter line services, as the Hunter sets aren't enough to operate the timetable alone.

There is also a political promise made before the election for several extra daily services on the Scone branch of the Hunter line to commence within the next year, so I can't see the rollingstock requirement for that line declining.

[Daniel]

Keep in mind that the current Endeavour fleet is notoriously underutilised.

[Fleet Lists]

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... ht-track-0

Hybrid trains on the right track
Published12 Nov 2019

NSW’s new Regional Rail Fleet will be the most tech advanced fleet to ever service the bush and city, with new bi-mode technology expected to see cost savings of around $2 million a year.

Minister for Regional Transport and Roads Paul Toole said the trains would transform passenger rail travel in regional NSW.

“We are leading the charge for more efficient and sustainable regional rail travel, with our new fleet being built with diesel-electric bi-mode technology, which is an Australian first,” Mr Toole said.

“This means when our trains enter electrified parts of NSW’s rail network they can connect to overhead power, which will see around $2 million in annual savings on the cost of diesel fuel.

“NSW’s electrified network reaches as far as Broadmeadow in the north, Lithgow in the west, Kiama in the south and Macarthur in the south west.

“Our new fleet will also have low emission diesel engines for travel along non-electrified sections of the rail network.”

Mr Toole said it was great news for regional NSW as they would have the most tech advanced long-distance trains in Australia.

“The NSW Government is committed to delivering modern and comfortable public transport for the bush,” Mr Toole said.

“Commuters will be able to charge their phones, recline their seats on longer regional journeys and use their laptops while travelling.”

The United Kingdom, the USA, France, Spain and Japan also have bi-mode trains operating on their passenger networks.

The new fleet comprise of 29 new trains with the first to be rolled out progressively from 2023. The fleet will be maintained at a new facility to be built in Dubbo.

[Campbelltown busboy]

Would the NSW government make this system to only work in NSW or will that also kick in when the interstate bound trains hit the Melbourne and Brisbane suburban networks if Metro Trains/PTV and Queensland Rail/TransLink allows NSW Trainlink to use their rail electricity systems to power these trains while on the Melbourne and Brisbane suburban networks

[tonyp]

Would the NSW government make this system to only work in NSW or will that also kick in when the interstate bound trains hit the Melbourne and Brisbane suburban networks if Metro Trains/PTV and Queensland Rail/TransLink allows NSW Trainlink to use their rail electricity systems to power these trains while on the Melbourne and Brisbane suburban networks

Apart from the fact that I don't think the standard gauge lines are electrified, I think the trains might get a bit fried on the Queensland system.

[boronia]

Southern Cross Station is already continually inflicted with dozens of diesel trains. I don't think two NSW sets for a couple of hours per day are going to have much extra effect on air quality.

[matthewg]

Would the NSW government make this system to only work in NSW or will that also kick in when the interstate bound trains hit the Melbourne and Brisbane suburban networks if Metro Trains/PTV and Queensland Rail/TransLink allows NSW Trainlink to use their rail electricity systems to power these trains while on the Melbourne and Brisbane suburban networks

There would be a small chance with Melbourne as they use the same 1500vDC power system - but I don't think there is any dual gauge electrified track, and diesel fuel is going to have to get a LOT more expensive before they string wires over the standard gauge line through the suburbs, although if they could leverage the existing 1500vDC infrastructure it could be relatively cheap to to.

Queensland has quite a bit of dual gauge with overhead above it, but it's 25kv AC. I doubt they want to fit a transformer to the train just to be able to use 5-10km of 25kv AC power - it would cost more in diesel fuel hauling the extra weight up to Queensland than it would save in fuel, switching to electric for such a short distance.

Now if we got some interstate mainline electrification happening (were 25Kv AC is the only sensible option), it would be different. I think they will spend big on trying to get Hydrogen fuel locomotives running before they fall back to mainline electrification.

[moa999]

I think they will spend big on trying to get Hydrogen fuel locomotives running before they fall back to mainline electrification.

Agreed. Unless you have high frequency, electrification won't get a payback.
Batteries will work on short off-electrified sections (as they are doing in Europe), but agree for Australia's distances hydrogen is probably a better solution.

[matthewg]

I think they will spend big on trying to get Hydrogen fuel locomotives running before they fall back to mainline electrification.

Agreed. Unless you have high frequency, electrification won't get a payback.
Batteries will work on short off-electrified sections (as they are doing in Europe), but agree for Australia's distances hydrogen is probably a better solution.

The 'hydrogen fuel cycle' is extremely inefficient. In terms of power generator - to point of consumption (the locomotive) overhead wires are way ahead. But the upfront cost of the infrastructure to use the efficient overhead wire power supply scares people off, so they keep trying to find alternatives no matter how inefficient.

We will probably have nuclear fusion tokamak powered locomotives before they consider mainline electrification in this country.

[Linto63]

Seems that NSW maybe the guinea-pig for CAFs entry into the bi-mode world. The technology isn't new, but coupled with the problems encountered with the entry into service of 3 separate CAF fleets in the UK that all ran over 12 months late, may not be a smooth introduction. And having travelled on the class 331 EMU a few months back, had a very cheap and nasty feel about it.

[tonyp]

Constance (and possibly others in government) are showing a somewhat imprudent love of new technology that hasn't already been extensively proven and long-term costed. The conventional wisdom among systems in smaller, less wealthy countries is to let big, wealthy countries take the lead in trialling new ideas and only when all the boxes are confidently ticked after extensive use should countries like Australia consider adopting some of these technologies. Otherwise we're just being used as a test-bed, at our expense, for companies like CAF.

As an example, we should be grateful that failed technologies like Translohr were first run in France till the shortcomings became obvious, rather than rushing in first ourselves. The latest Chinese pseudo tram-bus is a good example of something that makes me very nervous at such an early stage, considering the similar Bombardier Primove system bit the dust on high capex and opex costs. Imagine an Australian state government having to explain to voters that they made a mistake and have to rip out a system that may cost in the billions and replace it with something else that costs more billions. I don't expect these trains are in that category because the idea is basically sound, but being the first customer for a product is always a risk.

[boronia]

Having experienced people on staff who can make rational evaluations of new technology helps.

Gerry Harvey makes his millions from the Constances of this world who "just have to have" the latest in technology.

[boronia]

https://www.railexpress.com.au/construc ... -facility/



Is this a "trackless train"?

[boronia]

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/north ... etuH-coARM

These appear to be a similar CAF Civity platform as the NSW order.

[matthewg]

Having experienced people on staff who can make rational evaluations of new technology helps.

Bi-Mode trains are not new, and I don't think NSW isn't the first to get the CAF version of the idea. France has many Alstom and Bombadlier built 'bi-modes' and some they call 'tri-mode. (AC and DC overhead capability as well as diesel)


CAF has other issues - they appear to bid to a price to get the job and their build quality suffers.

The yaw damper failures in the UK in my mind are inexcusable - it's well known what stresses these dampers undergo, so there is no excuse for under engineering the support structure. A number of different types of CAF rollingstock have had issues in this area.

[lunchbox]

LETS TALK REVERSIBLE SEATING

Nowhere in this thread, or on the Momentum Trains website, is there any mention of reversible seating. There was a hellofafuss when Sydney commuters realised that their New Intercity Fleet ("NIF") trains, still yet to enter service, were to have fixed seating. Momentum's "artists impressions" seem to indicate all their seats are fixed.

Let's start the conversation.
49753

[boronia]

I was watching a video somewhere just recently and it mentioned the trains having "directional" seating.

[Bus 400]

The 29 new trains will have:
Comfortable directional seating with aeroplane-style overhead luggage storage and seat pockets

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... ional-rail

[boronia]

TfNSW seems to think the Oscars have "comfortable" directional seating, so the bar is low LOL.

[moa999]

LETS TALK REVERSIBLE SEATING

The time to talk about it would have been 5yrs ago when they were specced
Not after they have been delivered and should be in service.

Basically. Saves $$s, saves weight, saves more $$s in maintenance, allows power/USB.

[Transtopic]

My understanding is that the new CAF Regional train fleet will have reversible seating, but the NIF does not.

[boronia]

LETS TALK REVERSIBLE SEATING

The time to talk about it would have been 5yrs ago when they were specced
Not after they have been delivered and should be in service.

Basically. Saves $$s, saves weight, saves more $$s in maintenance, allows power/USB.

It was talked about 40 years ago. You'd think they learned a lesson with the XPTs, but I doubt there is any one in TfNSW with 40 years experience.

[boronia]

Basically. Saves $$s, saves weight, saves more $$s in maintenance, allows power/USB.

Overseas trains manage to get reversible seats with tray tables, power and USB outlets. No rocket scientists at CAF?

[Glen]

Basically. Saves $$s, saves weight, saves more $$s in maintenance, allows power/USB.

Overseas trains manage to get reversible seats with tray tables, power and USB outlets. No rocket scientists at CAF?

In what countries?

I thought a lot of UK / European trains had fixed seating.

Not saying I agree with it if applied in NSW, just curious.