Parramatta light rail

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:24 am EIther way, it's just an expensive indulgent white elephant like the CSELR.
White elephants don't tend to move far more people than even the busiest bus route in Sydney. Expensive indulgent services are full size buses that drive around carrying fresh air and, at the other extreme, buses that aren't large enough for the demand, so you need to use an extra bus and pay an extra driver.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Linto63 »

The government needs an infrastructure project where the premier, in his role as Western Sydney's best friend, can regularly don the hard hat and hi-vis to get his bonce on the evening news in the lead up to the 2023 election. After the rise of the teals in the federal election, roads are on the nose, hence Parra light rail has been pushed up the list, because it ticks the boxes of being green and in swinging electorates.
tonyp wrote: White elephants don't tend to move far more people than even the busiest bus route in Sydney
If a fleet of 50 trams with a capacity of 10,000 wasn't carrying more passengers than Sydney's busiest bus route (333 with capacity of 3,000 assuming all of Waverley's artics are dedicated to it) that would be a massive problem.
tonyp wrote: ...buses that aren't large enough for the demand, so you need to use an extra bus and pay an extra driver.
As had been discussed many times, it is a balancing act. High capacity buses have their place, but purchase too many and they have to operate services during the off-peak that don't require them.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Aurora »

I am sure it would still be cheaper than the extra labour cost of the smaller buses.
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boronia
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by boronia »

Some recent maps suggests that OP services on Stage 2 will terminate at Parramatta Square and not operate right through to Westmead.

A Scissors crossover has been provided at the Square, but not any provision for trams to reverse or layover clear of the running tracks (like Moore Park and Racecourse on the L2). I can foresee this being a point of congestion if running is as unpredictable as the CSE lines.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Transtopic »

The former Parramatta City Council plan, which recommended light rail links to Macquarie University via Eastwood and to Castle Hill, had the
Castle Hill line overlapping the Macquarie link to Westmead through the Paramatta CBD and terminating at Rydalmere. It would make sense for the current Stage 2 to at least continue through to North Parramatta.
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gilberations
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by gilberations »

Why build it now when you can spend more money later ;)
tonyp
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

This is about operation, not building infrastructure. The original concept for the Parramatta light rail was to have a service from Westmead heading east to Camellia, where it would split into two branches with alternative trams heading to either Carlingford or Olympic Park. What they're saying now is that trams to and from Olympic Park will proceed no further west along the main core than Parramatta city centre, where passengers will change to another tram from Carlingford if they want to go further north and west.

I don't agree with this as I think the hospitals sector is going to be an important one and doesn't deserve half a service. It's also the most direct connection with both the metro and suburban trains and there's an extra platform at Westmead to cater for lots of trams at this end. The operational pattern one could expect with a cut-back service may be trams every 5 or 10 minutes between the city centre and Camellia and every 10 or 20 minutes to and from the hospitals and Westmead, Olympic Park and Carlingford. I think it's early days and we'll see what comes out in the end.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by gilberations »

It’s also possible that they plan on not buying bimode trams for stage 2, and as such couldn’t go along church st
tonyp
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

gilberations wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:29 pm It’s also possible that they plan on not buying bimode trams for stage 2, and as such couldn’t go along church st
Yes I'd expect that sort of stupid decision, after nobbling the ability to run IWLR trams along George St Sydney to CQ. Plenty of inflexibility, all for the sake of the wireless nonsense.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by lunchbox »

PARRA LRT - STAGE 2
Display ad requesting submissions in today's (Wed, 9.11.22) Herald.
237439
tonyp
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

lunchbox wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:58 am PARRA LRT - STAGE 2
Display ad requesting submissions in today's (Wed, 9.11.22) Herald.
237439
The EIS is available on the Planning portal. Here is the executive summary:

https://majorprojects.planningportal.ns ... .387%20GMT
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Re: Parramatta light rail

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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by boronia »

The Parramatta stop does not seem well designed to accommodate terminating and through services.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Glen »

boronia wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:26 am The Parramatta stop does not seem well designed to accommodate terminating and through services.
How so?
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by boronia »

Glen wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:54 pm
boronia wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:26 am The Parramatta stop does not seem well designed to accommodate terminating and through services.
How so?
Terminating services at a platform have the ability to block following through services. Dedicated turnback sidings/platforms, such as provided on the CSET, reduce the possibility of such problems.
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tonyp
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:45 pm
Terminating services at a platform have the ability to block following through services. Dedicated turnback sidings/platforms, such as provided on the CSET, reduce the possibility of such problems.
No trams will reverse at Parramatta Square. They'll run on in the same direction and reverse on the stub west of Church St.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Swift »

They should cancel it. It's obviously just another light.rail project built to benefit developers, not the passengers.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

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tonyp wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:26 pm
boronia wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:45 pm
Terminating services at a platform have the ability to block following through services. Dedicated turnback sidings/platforms, such as provided on the CSET, reduce the possibility of such problems.
No trams will reverse at Parramatta Square. They'll run on in the same direction and reverse on the stub west of Church St.
IIRC, there is a scissors crossover at Parramatta Sq and no evidence of any stub siding, unless I've got my locations wrong?
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tonyp
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

The siding can't be built until the project is approved and construction has commenced.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Transtopic »

Swift wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:01 pm They should cancel it. It's obviously just another light.rail project built to benefit developers, not the passengers.
Couldn't agree more. It's the most useless piece of infrastructure so far proposed by TfNSW and the LNP government.

It's a convoluted route, with two additional expensive Parramatta River crossings, which could easily be replaced with upgraded rapid bus links at a fraction of the cost to connect Melrose Park with West Ryde Station via Victoria Rd and Wentworth Point to the existing Sydney Olympic Park Station and the future Metro West. That's not to mention the existing bus shuttle from Wentworth Point to Rhodes Station, which unfortunately, as with West Ryde, not being on the metro network doesn't seem to count. Metro West will provide a more direct and faster link with Parramatta, considering that Stage 2 is not expected to be completed until the same time as Metro West.

The bleedingly obvious second stage of the Parramatta Light Rail should be to reinstate Parramatta City Council's original proposal for a more direct light rail link from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood along the wide 6-lane Kissing Point Rd and Eastwood County Rd reservation. Although it would cost more, it would have far greater economic benefits connecting the two largest Strategic Centres outside of the Sydney CBD, not to mention the redevelopment opportunities in Eastwood, which seems to have slipped off the radar. Both the existing light rail lines terminating at Carlingford and the proposed stage 2 are a failure.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

I understand that the planning is for an intensive level of development along the north side of the river, which means, along with the intensive development already at Wentworth Point, the capacity of a bus service is quite inadequate.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Here is something interesting about a corridor put aside to link Carlingford with Epping

https://youtube.com/watch?v=AdigiE8SSSU
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by Swift »

It's a gold plated piece of rubbish. Enormous waste of time and money by corrupt forces.
It ends up in the arse end of Carlingford because it was easiest to use the old railway line. Weak and pathetic.
Before the disgusting costly and ineffectual CSELR was imposed by the four yearly dictatorship. I would have thought Brisbane were a backwater for their new bus based multi articulated vehicles they're rolling out, but I think they are the smartest, wisest and cleverest city in the country right now, while Sydney stews away in It's own poop with these insane poorly planned mega projects.

The best project Parramatta ever did was the free shuttle bus loop the council initiated before the four yearly dictators took it over and eventuality discontinued it.

Sydney disappointing one day, depressing the next.
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by grog »

Swift wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:01 pm They should cancel it. It's obviously just another light.rail project built to benefit developers, not the passengers.
Not to stick up for dodgy developers, but this has it the wrong way around. It is built for development, not developers. This means housing supply, so that people in my generation can one day afford to buy or rent somewhere with good public transport access.

Every apartment built around this line is a house that doesn’t have to be built in a new subdivision, and another person or couple of people who can get places they need to live on public transport instead of needing to drive 5-10 minutes to get basic groceries.

Being built to support development in a super central location is a good thing, not a bad thing.
tonyp
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Re: Parramatta light rail

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:04 am I would have thought Brisbane were a backwater for their new bus based multi articulated vehicles they're rolling out, but I think they are the smartest, wisest and cleverest city in the country right now, while Sydney stews away in It's own poop with these insane poorly planned mega projects.
Not somebody else who doesn't comprehend capacity! The Brisbane busway bi-artics will provide a design capacity of about 3,000 people per hour per direction, compared to CSELR's design capacity of 13,500 pphpd or Parramatta Light Rail's design capacity of about 4,500 to 5,000 pphpd. Gold Coast's light rail has much more design capacity than Brisbane's busways. Queensland introduced their higher capacity mode in the smaller regional city and the lower capacity mode in the big capital city. That's actually dumb by any standard. Don't be like Brisbane. Be like Sydney.
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