New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

RayW wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:21 am
i can certainly sympathise with that view. The metro's are a shocker. We use them for convenience, but that's it. They're not an enjoyable ride at all, oh and the aircon is always on freezing!
I'm surprised that they've still got the aircon on that freezing setting in spite of the feedback. It seems that it was set for a dense peak period crowd in summer and left like that. It certainly is possible to have a more sophisticated climate control regime, even an automated one.

I think my wife and I must have a different perception of train performance. We rarely use trains in NSW, only between Nowra and Wollongong nowadays because it's far more comfortable and quicker going by car to Sydney. Our main commuter train riding over the past couple of decades has either been in Perth or in Europe where all the trains perform like the Sydney metro. So for us it's the norm and we have no problems with it. But it does reinforce how excruciating the slowness is when stepping into the occasional trip by a suburban or interurban train in NSW.

Some years ago when our daughter was about seven, we had spent six months in Prague whizzing about on the very quick tram and metro systems there. She became quite a tram enthusiast and even decided she wanted to become a tram driver when she grew up. A bit of a speed demon. After we came back to Sydney, we took her on a ride on IWLR to continue the experience for her and she sat there in serious silence for a while, then turned to us and said: "why is this tram so slow?". Out of the mouths of babes. Says it all.

We have absolutely the slowest public transport in NSW, that's why the metro is such a sensational change, completing trips up to ten minutes or so quicker than equivalent semi-express suburban and interurban services over the same distance with the same number of stops. When we have those metro services open through to Bankstown, Parramatta and WSA we'll finally be catching up with the European-level performance of the Perth system.

The big pity is that these new interurban trains aren't going to make one iota of difference to journey times, it'll still be the same old amble. I wish they'd build a metro line to Wollongong actually. That would be about 70 km, the same distance as the Mandurah line in Perth where the trains take about 50 minutes (compared with 1.5 hours on the current Wollongong trains, which have less stops en route too). For a journey time of 50 minutes you don't need special long-distance trains with more comfortable seats. The Perth/metro type of train is fine. It's journey time that determines the level of comfort needed in a train, not distance. We need to stop thinking in terms of long distance trains and think instead of long journey-time trains. They're not necessarily the same thing.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by RayW »

tonyp wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:01 pm
I'm surprised that they've still got the aircon on that freezing setting in spite of the feedback. It seems that it was set for a dense peak period crowd in summer and left like that. It certainly is possible to have a more sophisticated climate control regime, even an automated one.

I think my wife and I must have a different perception of train performance. We rarely use trains in NSW, only between Nowra and Wollongong nowadays because it's far more comfortable and quicker going by car to Sydney. Our main commuter train riding over the past couple of decades has either been in Perth or in Europe where all the trains perform like the Sydney metro. So for us it's the norm and we have no problems with it. But it does reinforce how excruciating the slowness is when stepping into the occasional trip by a suburban or interurban train in NSW.

Some years ago when our daughter was about seven, we had spent six months in Prague whizzing about on the very quick tram and metro systems there. She became quite a tram enthusiast and even decided she wanted to become a tram driver when she grew up. A bit of a speed demon. After we came back to Sydney, we took her on a ride on IWLR to continue the experience for her and she sat there in serious silence for a while, then turned to us and said: "why is this tram so slow?". Out of the mouths of babes. Says it all.

We have absolutely the slowest public transport in NSW, that's why the metro is such a sensational change, completing trips up to ten minutes or so quicker than equivalent semi-express suburban and interurban services over the same distance with the same number of stops. When we have those metro services open through to Bankstown, Parramatta and WSA we'll finally be catching up with the European-level performance of the Perth system.

The big pity is that these new interurban trains aren't going to make one iota of difference to journey times, it'll still be the same old amble. I wish they'd build a metro line to Wollongong actually. That would be about 70 km, the same distance as the Mandurah line in Perth where the trains take about 50 minutes (compared with 1.5 hours on the current Wollongong trains, which have less stops en route too). For a journey time of 50 minutes you don't need special long-distance trains with more comfortable seats. The Perth/metro type of train is fine. It's journey time that determines the level of comfort needed in a train, not distance. We need to stop thinking in terms of long distance trains and think instead of long journey-time trains. They're not necessarily the same thing.
To be brutally honest with you, we did in fact have reasonable decent travel time several years ago. It all went south when two illustrious Transport ministers took the helm (you know them, they have now quit politics) and Mr Collins was placed in charge. Ever since then its been getting worse and worse each year.

My commute each way used to be around 30 minutes with one change over. Now I have to make three changes to reach the same destination with the travel time blown out to almost an hour. I have to get up earlier and I get home later.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Fleet Lists »

This has nothing to do with the new trains so please back on topic in furher posts.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Fleet Lists wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:00 pm This has nothing to do with the new trains so please back on topic in furher posts.
Sorry, I guess we did get carried away.

Back on topic. Can someone please tell me why these Intercity Trains were proposed to be guardless? Yes I know the unions are trying to change that, but it isn't done yet. What was the idea behind that? Efficiency?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by gilberations »

RayW wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:04 am
Fleet Lists wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:00 pm This has nothing to do with the new trains so please back on topic in furher posts.
Sorry, I guess we did get carried away.

Back on topic. Can someone please tell me why these Intercity Trains were proposed to be guardless? Yes I know the unions are trying to change that, but it isn't done yet. What was the idea behind that? Efficiency?
Cost cutting. Pure and simple.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by RayW »

gilberations wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:08 pm
Cost cutting. Pure and simple.
Yes I suppose one could say the cost will be to the public.

Does anyone know at this point what speeds these things are capable of?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Aurora »

The thinking behind the plan was that the role of the guard is redundant due to advances in technology in recent decades.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by gilberations »

Aurora wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:51 pm The thinking behind the plan was that the role of the guard is redundant due to advances in technology in recent decades.
Yes and no. I’m fact a study was done and it’s more logical to remove the driver than the guard.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

The modern city commuter train nowadays is typically driver-only operation, In fact, Sydney is the only Australian city to use guards. I make no comment on that because there are a number of issues being argued over and there always will be as long as we have a cobbled together rail network with many infrastructure features still inherited from the 19th century. Other cities seem to deal with any issues that can't be handled by the driver from within the train by means of the driver getting out of the train, which of course throws the timetable.

I can't see some issues ever being resolved as long as we have this system, such as access to trains by the mobility restricted, something that will always require a second staff member, whether on the train or on every station. My preferred solution is to interlace more and more metro network throughout the greater Sydney area until the most people possible have access to a modern, fast and accessible train network. Then let the suburban and interurban system chug along in the same compromised way, probably forever.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

RayW wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:43 pm
gilberations wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:08 pm
Cost cutting. Pure and simple.
Yes I suppose one could say the cost will be to the public.

Does anyone know at this point what speeds these things are capable of?
Probably the same as the rest of the fleet. Regardless of what they might be "capable" of, they will be constrained by much lower speed limits.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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It's 160 km/h but NSW Trains have already said that they will be run to existing schedules. No speeding up of services.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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tonyp wrote: In fact, Sydney is the only Australian city to use guards.
Brisbane as well
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Swift »

RayW wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:43 pm Does anyone know at this point what speeds these things are capable of?
More important is their acceleration to reach the speeds they are allowed to do. Tangaras were always quick accelerators.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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tonyp wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:19 pm It's 160 km/h but NSW Trains have already said that they will be run to existing schedules. No speeding up of services.
Until the digital signalling upgrade and ATO is completed, which will allow higher speeds and improved acceleration/deceleration performance. The same goes for the Waratahs, Millenniums and Oscars, which have a maximum design speed of 130km/h.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Swift »

I bet the Comeng S sets could go faster than their Goninan counterparts due to the Goninan's flat fronts.
They probably cost the railways more in power pushing through the wind.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Swift wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:10 pm
RayW wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:43 pm Does anyone know at this point what speeds these things are capable of?
More important is their acceleration to reach the speeds they are allowed to do. Tangaras were always quick accelerators.
Not sure about the acceleration/deceleration performance of the NIF, or Tangaras, but I would imagine that it would be similar to the Waratah fleet, which is designed for 1.0 m/s2, although they have been geared down to 0.8 m/s2 for acceleration which can be upgraded. That compares with the Alstom metro rolling stock which has acceleration/deceleration performance of 1.1 m/s2 and 1.3 m/s2 for emergency braking.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Swift wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:16 pm I bet the Comeng S sets could go faster than their Goninan counterparts due to the Goninan's flat fronts.
They probably cost the railways more in power pushing through the wind.
My father in law was working at Comeng when they commissioned the Series 2 V-sets; which use much the same gear as the S sets. Dad was involved in the braking systems and was often on board with the trials; his diary quotes are interesting from 1972 on three tests between Mt Druitt and Werrington with a four car set, he has three entries where the units reached 88-91 mph.

I think this applies to our entire network, unlike Europe where they employ high speed points, our trains are restricted by the track system itself, let alone the signaling. A trip to Newcastle interchange is in fact slower today than when the Diesel hauled services were in operation 50 years ago.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

The Comeng double deck trains were the best. It all went downhill after that. They still produce good ones in Europe. Maybe a certain manufacturer here should take a trip over there and have a look one day?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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tonyp wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:20 am The Comeng double deck trains were the best. It all went downhill after that. They still produce good ones in Europe. Maybe a certain manufacturer here should take a trip over there and have a look one day?
They still are. As I have said earlier, I'd prefer to travel on those (including the V-sets) than anything else.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Glen »

RayW wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:47 am
A trip to Newcastle interchange is in fact slower today than when the Diesel hauled services were in operation 50 years ago.
That's often quoted in a comparison with the 38 class on the Newcastle Flyer but one issue to keep in mind is the larger number of stops on today's fastest trains.

That said, dwell times and running times are unnecessarily slow across the board these days.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Swift »

Glen wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:03 pm
That said, dwell times and running times are unnecessarily slow across the board these days.
We need doors that shut like QR trains. That will cut a lot of the delay from stragglers trying to dive in. They'll end up like Maxwell Smart holding his nose at the beginning sequence of his show.

The V sets were a marvel when new. They were that silent you sometimes needed to swallow to unpop your ears. Then they removed the double glazing and they became rickety feeling.
Their mojo did largely return with the purple refirbs and the thicker carpeting. I personally liked them even though others did not.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by RayW »

Glen wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:03 pm
That's often quoted in a comparison with the 38 class on the Newcastle Flyer but one issue to keep in mind is the larger number of stops on today's fastest trains.

That said, dwell times and running times are unnecessarily slow across the board these days.
The last service I can recall was with my fiance' (now wife of 44 years) back in the early 70s; it was hauled by a 44 class. I believe it was called the Newcastle limited. The stops were after leaving Central- Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Wyong, Fassifern, Broadmedow, Hamilton and Newcastle. The stop at Gosford was for ten minutes to allow a crew change (and passengers to visit the kiosk). From memory that was just under 2 hours; the current best service is around 2 hours 50 minutes or so.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Various posts have been reported as off topic. I have given them the benefit of the doubt. However this history discussion is now closed and future posts should be back on topic.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

RayW wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:45 am
The last service I can recall was with my fiance' (now wife of 44 years) back in the early 70s; it was hauled by a 44 class. I believe it was called the Newcastle limited. The stops were after leaving Central- Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Wyong, Fassifern, Broadmedow, Hamilton and Newcastle. The stop at Gosford was for ten minutes to allow a crew change (and passengers to visit the kiosk). From memory that was just under 2 hours; the current best service is around 2 hours 50 minutes or so.
The record time for Sydney-Newcastle is 2 hrs 1 minute, achieved with a 38 class hauled special trip which ran non stop from Central to Newcastle under very controlled conditions. Am empty XPT set may have achieved similar timings. Sorry, bu no way your trip could have been under 2 hours.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by gilberations »

Personal record for me in an empty cars 8V set is 2hrs 15th s. Green sticks the whole way, normally scheduled empty movement but on this occasion they needed the set in Sydney to make a down service back to Newcastle. We made it with 5 mins to spare before it’s down journey began
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