Inner West Light Rail observations

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Jurassic_Joke
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Government formally confirms the Citadis has been running testing on IWLR for potential passenger services. No decision reached yet.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gov ... 59g8z.html
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boronia
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

The upcoming school and uni holidays would release a few sets, although sprting events at Moore Park and Racecourse might need them?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

The government must realise having the line with that huge growth in patronage it built up suddenly shut indefinitely is an embarrassment for the government and the buses are never going to compensate so it's not surprising they would find ways to reopen it, albeit to a greatly reduced capacity.
You have to also consider if the CSELR will be adversely affected. We might see Citadis replace the CAFs as a result and have a standardisation at last.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

Being able to run the Citadis on this line might spark some interest in operating some L1 services to Circular Quay? Say, a shuttle from Lilyfield?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:05 pm Being able to run the Citadis on this line might spark some interest in operating some L1 services to Circular Quay? Say, a shuttle from Lilyfield?
This failure looks like it may be the best thing to happen to Sydney's light rail system, forcing a better system.
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Linto63
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

boronia wrote: Being able to run the Citadis on this line might spark some interest in operating some L1 services to Circular Quay? Say, a shuttle from Lilyfield?
Unlikely, if the Citadis operates on the L1 will be as a single car set, vs doubles on the L2/L3.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

^ and also, would there really be a lot of space for a third service to turn around at Circular Quay with the current timetable? That third platform at CQ, maybe?

I think it would be a good detour route if there happens to be an accident / any other disruption on Hay St between Capitol Sq and Central, then instead of being held up, Citadis trams on L1 could divert (Melbourne style) onto another route (L2/3) to CQ instead
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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If they can run single on the Central leg, they should be able to run single to CQ.

The third road at CQ gets used if there is any bunching of the L2/L3 services, which is quite often.

But usually one of those 3 would be running late and gets turned around quickly to vacate a platform, they can do this similarly with an L1 service.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:05 pm
boronia wrote: Being able to run the Citadis on this line might spark some interest in operating some L1 services to Circular Quay? Say, a shuttle from Lilyfield?
Unlikely, if the Citadis operates on the L1 will be as a single car set, vs doubles on the L2/L3.
This just keeps getting better. Was that test in the video further back a decoupled unit?
BTW Nine News was using that footage in their report on possible use of the L3 & 2 trams on L1 IWLR.
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moa999
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

Running singles and doubles intermixed would greatly reduce the capacity of the George St section..

And given its taken them 12 months to get L2/L3 up to a moderate timetable, certainly wouldn't recommend adding complications.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Agreed but something we may have to put up with
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

The George St line has a capacity of a tram every 2 minutes (doesn't matter whether single or double set), so there would be no theoretical issue with inserting L1 services without having to reduce L2 and L3 services. That's the theory anyway.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

moa999 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:52 pm Running singles and doubles intermixed would greatly reduce the capacity of the George St section..

And given its taken them 12 months to get L2/L3 up to a moderate timetable, certainly wouldn't recommend adding complications.
There are currently 2 trams every 8 minutes in each direction of George St. Inserting an occasional 3rd tram shouldn't slow things down much.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:59 pm The George St line has a capacity of a tram every 2 minutes (doesn't matter whether single or double set), so there would be no theoretical issue with inserting L1 services without having to reduce L2 and L3 services. That's the theory anyway.
But as you have previously pointed out, they're running it like safe working on a heavy rail network with unrealistic separation of services, reducing its potential capacity, and which is not typically relevant to light rail. You and I are both old enough to recall the conga line of trams in the CBD on Sydney's former tram network without any safety issues. The same happens in Melbourne to this day.

I haven't looked it up, but I thought that the junction from L1 to L2/L3 at George St went towards Central, rather than Circular Quay. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Don’t forget that this ‘detour route’ of L1 we’re discussing using the junction to turn into L2 and L3 at the Hay/George St crossing (Transtopic, its leftwards towards Circular Quay, not towards Central), would only be able to be used by Citadis trams. The Urbos trams don’t have the APS technology to go past Town Hall, then they’d have a gap with the L2/3 platforms with the tram floor being shorter than the height of the platform - in fact wait, Urbos is also a little wider than the Citadis, would they even fit into the L2/L3 platforms without scratching anything? And of course, I don’t think we know what the Urbos’ tram-train wheels would make of L2/3’s tramway tracks, but definitely can’t go past Town Hall due to no overhead wire.

Just worth noting that Citadis would only be a temporary solution from what Stokes said in the pressers yesterday until the Urbos are eventually fixed, then L1 being able to hypothetically run passenger services into Circular Quay would only be a temporary feat as well, unless they later decide to keep however many Citadis are planning to shortly be moved over to L1. Maybe as homage to the former Variotrams and their fleet numbers, they could start with Citadis no. 001 and go upwards from there.

I watched Channel 10 footage with Stokes, the good news is,the media understands if approved Citadis could be running passenger service on L1 within 2 months. Not long and with the rest of the line shut they can easily use that time to make any adjustments to platform gaps. The rather bad or worrying news is, he also said its his preference that Citadis will run a complete L1 service, all the way from Central to Dulwich Hill, instead of say start with baby steps and scale up from there - do we know for certain exactly how many spare Citadis there are, minus those down for maintenance? Taking 12 trams or 6 double sets from L2 and L3 sounds to me like it would put pressure on these lines but yeah lets wait and see, I could be wrong, maybe its a drop in the ocean - also, have Citadis ever run west of Lilyfield before?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

The suggestion is that Citadis, not Urbos, operate L1 services to Circular Quay in lieu of Central, the latter not currently an option for the various reasons given. But either way can't see it happening.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

Transtopic wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:45 am I haven't looked it up, but I thought that the junction from L1 to L2/L3 at George St went towards Central, rather than Circular Quay. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The junction is towards Circular Quay.
cse12a DSC08778 (Small).jpeg
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:26 am
The junction is towards Circular Quay.cse12a DSC08778 (Small).jpeg
Yes, my error. Forgot to correct the original post.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by gascoyne »

tonyp wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:59 pm The George St line has a capacity of a tram every 2 minutes (doesn't matter whether single or double set), so there would be no theoretical issue with inserting L1 services without having to reduce L2 and L3 services. That's the theory anyway.
Whether single or double DOES matter. Look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa20UR0GQv0 ... that intersection would have great difficulty passing 30 t/h inbound and 30 t/h outbound especially if they're all double set.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

gascoyne wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:24 am
tonyp wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:59 pm The George St line has a capacity of a tram every 2 minutes (doesn't matter whether single or double set), so there would be no theoretical issue with inserting L1 services without having to reduce L2 and L3 services. That's the theory anyway.
Whether single or double DOES matter. Look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa20UR0GQv0 ... that intersection would have great difficulty passing 30 t/h inbound and 30 t/h outbound especially if they're all double set.
That's the design capacity of the line on its own without considering externalities and I did say "theoretically". Sydney cross-streets that carry general motor traffic east-west across its north-south public transport routes do present a challenge, no question. The door to go through is accepting that the public transport is essential but the general traffic (leaving aside goods vehicles) is not. There's a need to bite the bullet and make the Cahill and CCT toll-free and make some impost on surface traffic.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

I wonder what dead running would look like with the Citadis, considering the CAFs are currently still hogging all the (Pyrmont) depot space and from memory trams would finish service at Central at the end of the night rather than Dulwich Hill. I wonder if they could maybe move the CAFs to Randwick temporarily solely for storage purposes if/when the Citadis start running L1?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

The wheel profile and width problem might prevent the CAFs going to Randwick. Some could probably be stored at Lilyfield.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Jurassic_Joke wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:46 am I wonder what dead running would look like with the Citadis, considering the CAFs are currently still hogging all the (Pyrmont) depot space and from memory trams would finish service at Central at the end of the night rather than Dulwich Hill. I wonder if they could maybe move the CAFs to Randwick temporarily solely for storage purposes if/when the Citadis start running L1?
I doubt dead running is a big problem. Is it probably less costly than bus replacement. Also, they might rewrite the timetbale.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boxythingy »

The cost of extra corflute, communications and printed papers would be nothing compared to the total estimated $50m on projected bus use for a whole 18 month shutdown period
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

I wonder if they'd get away with a similar situation of such a long bustitution in another city in a western country in a political sense?
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