Inner West Light Rail observations

[Merc1107]

You'd hope enough maintenance is done during this closure to save another shutdown when the reopening eventually happens.

[Aurora]

You'd hope enough maintenance is done during this closure to save another shutdown when the reopening eventually happens.

That is not the case because use leads to wear and tear necessitating maintenance of infrastructure.

[Swift]

As if the railway tracks are a pressing issue! We have some displaced commuters to transport and we have a set here who don't want to talk about it like they're desperate to deflect the subject.

[tonyp]

As if the railway tracks are a pressing issue! We have some displaced commuters to transport and we have a set here who don't want to talk about it like they're desperate to deflect the subject.

Well yes, as the L1 tram service disappears from existence for 18 months or whatever, I don't know what else there is to discuss in this thread other than the ongoing fate of the commuters making the 10 million or so journeys on it every year in normal times, how they will be travelling and how many will return one day. It's somewhat longer than the average railway shutdown. No doubt the ongoing saga of the CAF trams will occupy a bit of discussion as any new news appears.

[J_Busworth]

It's almost as if the Inner West Light Rail isn't operating and part of the discussion about it's services should be about the suitable buses to replace the service. From a capacity perspective, artics or another high capacity bus would be the logical choice, but I doubt that will happen.

This morning State Transit seems to be operating the new Route 499 out of Randwick and Ryde depots. Service is in the Real Time Apps but tracking doesn't seem to be available.

[Fleet Lists]

As long as it is purely about suitable buses for the L1 replacement services, that is OK but the discussion was getting down to purely discussing whether artics are better that other buses as a general issue such as Nowra Coaches buying artics which has nothing to do with the subject here - that is NOT what this thread is about.

[Fleet Lists]

Further to previous posts there are now two replacement routes 498 and 499
https://transportnsw.info/news/2021/l1- ... 0#homepage
Could not find 498 and 499 timetables as yet and the 1L1 timetable is still there but the trip finder is using at least route 499.

Buses replace light rail services on the L1 Line
Monday 08 November 2021

Buses will replace light rail services until further notice on the L1 Dulwich Hill Line between Central Grand Concourse and Dulwich Hill, due to light rail vehicle repairs.

Two replacement bus routes will operate at regular frequencies.

Route 498 – shuttle service between The Star and Central Station Forecourt (adjacent to the Grand Concourse)
Route 499 – Dulwich Hill to Central Station Forecourt (adjacent to the Grand Concourse) – all stops

Regular Opal fares apply and customers are reminded to tap on and tap off.

Replacement buses will run at the following frequency:

6am to 7am – 8 to 15 minute frequency
7am to 7pm – 6 to 10 minute frequency
7pm to 11pm (midnight on Friday) – 8 to 15 minute frequency

Replacement buses will not stop at the following locations:

Capitol Square (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) – Use the alternative stop at Central Grand Concourse (approx. 5 minute walk)
Exhibition Centre (towards Dulwich Hill) – Use the alternative stop at Convention (approx. 5 minute walk)
Pyrmont Bay (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) – Use the alternative stop at The Star (approx. 5 minute walk)

Due to COVID-19, recommended capacity onboard buses is currently under restrictions. Check capacity displayed on buses’ doors before boarding.

Night services between Central Grand Concourse and The Star continue to be suspended.

L2 Randwick Line and L3 Kingsford Line will continue to run as per normal schedule.

Please allow extra travel time and use the Trip Planner or check travel alerts to see if you travel is affected.

Please follow the yellow directional signs to the nearby replacement bus stop locations.
Replacement bus stop locations
Light rail stop Replacement bus stop Walking distance between stops
Central Grand Concourse (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Central Station, Coach Terminal, Western Forecourt Bus Bays 6 approx. 1 minute walk
Paddy’s Markets (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Corner of Hay St and Darling Dr approx. 2 minute walk
Exhibition Centre (towards Central only) Darling Dr approx. 1 minute walk
Convention (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Darling Dr approx. 1 minute walk
The Star (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Pirrama Rd approx. 1 minute walk
John Street Square (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Corner of Harris St and John St approx. 1 minute walk
Fish Market (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Miller St approx. 2 minute walk
Wentworth Park (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Pyrmont Bridge Rd approx. 3 minute walk
Glebe (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Bridge Rd approx. 1 minute walk
Jubilee Park (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) The Crescent approx. 6 minute walk
Rozelle Bay (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) The Crescent approx. 5 minute walk
Lilyfield (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Catherine St, same stop in both directions approx. 1 minute walk
Leichhardt North (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Darley Rd approx. 2 minute walk
Hawthorne (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Darley Rd approx. 1 minute walk
Marion (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Corner of Foster St and Marion St approx. 3 minute walk
Taverners Hill (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Old Canterbury Rd, same stop in both directions approx. 8 minute walk
Lewisham West (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Old Canterbury Rd, same stop in both directions approx. 5 minute walk
Waratah Mills (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Corner of Old Canterbury Rd and Rosedale St approx. 5 minute walk
Arlington (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Constitution Rd approx. 1 minute walk
Dulwich Grove (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Marrickville Rd approx. 6 minute walk
Dulwich Hill (towards Central and Dulwich Hill) Dudley St approx. 2 minute walk
Other alternative transport
Light rail stop Alternative transport options Alternative stop location
Dulwich Hill T3 Bankstown Line
Route 412 Dulwich Hill Station
Dudley Street
Dulwich Grove Route 418, 428, 428X, 445 New Canterbury Road
Lewisham West Route 413*
T2 Inner West Line* Old Canterbury Road
Lewisham Station
Taverners Hill Route 461N, 461X, 480, 483 Parramatta Road
Marion Route 437, 438N, 438X Marion Street
Leichhardt North Route 437*, 440* Norton Street
Lilyfield Route 437, 440* Catherine Street (437), Lilyfield (470)
Rozelle Bay Route 433 The Crescent
Jubilee Park Route 433* The Crescent
Glebe Route 431* Glebe Point Road
Fish Market Route 501* Miller Street
John Street Route 389 Harris Street
The Star Route 389 Pirrama Road

[tonyp]

Nowra Coaches came into it in the context of the advantage of high capacity buses for those school services left in the lurch by the withdrawal of the trams. Standard buses are completely inadequate for the capacity required for that sort of work. It doesn't really matter whether they're artics or deckers or a mixture of both. It's the capacity.

[Fleet Lists]

That was just an example - the thread was getting off subject on something which is already being discussed elsewhere.

[boronia]

Government ‘hopeful’ inner west light rail will return sooner than first feared

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gov ... 596qt.html

[Merc1107]

What are the extent of capacity restrictions on buses in NSW/Sydney presently, and how does that compare with demand on the light rail presently?

[Fleet Lists]

https://transportnsw.info/covid-19/covi ... l-guidance

Latest updates - Sunday 31 October
Capacity increases

From Monday 1 November, COVIDSafe capacity on all modes will increase from 50 per cent to around 75 per cent with an increase in service capacities. More green physical distancing dots will be rolled out across the network, allowing you to choose the best places to sit and stand on all modes.

It does not appear to differentiate between modes of transport.

[tonyp]

What are the extent of capacity restrictions on buses in NSW/Sydney presently, and how does that compare with demand on the light rail presently?

I imagine it is in proportion to the normal capacity for the two types - over 200 for a tram and averaging about 65 for a rigid bus. Since the buses look like they're being tabled to the same frequencies as the trams, it'll be a rerun of the 1950s-1961 situation in Sydney where there's a sudden enormous loss of capacity. From Fleet List's information summary, much of the load is going to have to transfer to the suburban rail and Region 6 bus services that cross the light rail along its route.

I'm surprised that they won't optimise the proximity of the replacement buses with the tram route a little more by running them around the Central terminus loop via Hay St.

When I went on trains a couple of days ago, all seats were available for sitting on.

[Fleet Lists]

Government ‘hopeful’ inner west light rail will return sooner than first feared

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gov ... 596qt.html

It does not seem to address the track issues.

[Fleet Lists]

Anytrip lists routes 498 and 499 as "unknown routes" but does not appear to be tracking them.

[boronia]

I'm surprised that they won't optimise the proximity of the replacement buses with the tram route a little more by running them around the Central terminus loop via Hay St.

They tried this a few years ago. There were clearance problems with the raised kerbs coming off the Eddy Ave bridge and in the colonnade.

[Swift]

What's happened with LRV drivers and other hands on staff?

[stupid_girl]

Government ‘hopeful’ inner west light rail will return sooner than first feared

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gov ... 596qt.html

Is it even more complicated than fixing the cracks?

The government also considered whether it could split the CBD light rail trams in half to be able to run on the inner west line, but decided it was too complicated to make the necessary changes, given the different wheelbase of the two vehicles.

[Linto63]

Standard buses are completely inadequate for the capacity required for that sort of work. It doesn't really matter whether they're artics or deckers or a mixture of both. It's the capacity.

Majority view is that the discussion is irrelevant to the IWLR, you are flogging a dead horse.

I'm surprised that they won't optimise the proximity of the replacement buses with the tram route a little more by running them around the Central terminus loop via Hay St.

Buses need to layover between trips, not practical for drivers to complete a round Dulwich Hill - Central - Dulwich Hill round trip that is greater than 2 hours without a comfort stop.

Since the buses look like they're being tabled to the same frequencies as the trams, it'll be a rerun of the 1950s-1961 situation in Sydney where there's a sudden enormous loss of capacity.

It the light rail is running with the same reduced level of patronage as trains and buses are, won't be an issue.

[tonyp]

It the light rail is running with the same reduced level of patronage as trains and buses are, won't be an issue.

So the light rail has been running with average loads of only about 65 people? I doubt it. At the same time, in that context, buses would have been running with far less than 65, so the same proportional capacity issue applies.

[Fleet Lists]

Yes so not an issue.

[jpp42]

Few notes
* The complaints about ability of buses to handle the loads are kind of moot in my observation, I have not seen any buses approaching 50% capacity. Maybe that's because they were generous with the number of buses being arranged under the previous emergency workings? Now that there's apparently a new contract for the replacement service, I suppose we'll have to keep watching.
* Also, as a semi-regular user of this service prior to the shutdown, I have not seen loads as high as 65, more like 30-40 even in peak. Post-Covid recovery is still ongoing for all modes of PT.
* The replacement route struggles with tight corners in Glebe and surrounds, it's hard to see how an arctic would be reasonable when even standard buses have trouble. The inbound route is modified to use St. John's Road instead of Wigram (route of the 433, which would be preferred) , due to clearances making it unsafe to turn left from Glebe Pt Rd into Pyrmont Bridge Rd. Instead the eastbound route from Forest Lodge goes Ross St -> left St John's Road -> left Glebe Pt Rd -> right Pyrmont Bridge Rd. The latter intersection is signed no right turn but I guess the buses are given an exemption (they should signpost this bus exemption, now that this will be a longer-term situation).
* A report is that 498 has been making all stops between Central and The Star (which is now just Paddy's Market and Convention), it's not really a "shuttle" as advertised. Not sure if this is intended or not.

[Merc1107]

Standard buses are completely inadequate for the capacity required for that sort of work. It doesn't really matter whether they're artics or deckers or a mixture of both. It's the capacity.

Majority view is that the discussion is irrelevant to the IWLR, you are flogging a dead horse.

I don't mind occasional digressions from the topic at hand provided there is relevance to the original discussion. However, what is getting tiresome is this petulant tit-for-tat behaviour that seems to infiltrate posts at times.

The replacement route struggles with tight corners in Glebe and surrounds, it's hard to see how an arctic would be reasonable when even standard buses have trouble

It's actually surprising just how easy it is to manoeuvre an artic - the present generation I've driven are arguably more nimble than a rigid from the same maker. That said, I haven't seen where you're speaking about so cannot make an accurate judgement.

If the replacement services are not struggling capacity wise presently, that's good news. Although Sydney is only in the early days of reopening (the cities that have avoided large outbreaks seem to be sitting on about 80-90% of Pre-COVID patronage right now), so if the closure drags on, that's perhaps where the capacity issue will become pronounced. Worst comes to worst, I see no issue with removing capacity limits on all modes and simply telling people to judge the risk for themselves.

[Linto63]

So the light rail has been running with average loads of only about 65 people?

So where did 65 come from? I was suggesting that demand on light rail services was probably running at the same rate as bus and rail services, which I would estimate from my commutes (albeit not as frequently as before) at 20-40% of pre lockdown numbers. Lines up with jpp42's observations.

I don't mind occasional digressions from the topic at hand provided there is relevance to the original discussion. However, what is getting tiresome is this petulant tit-for-tat behaviour that seems to infiltrate posts at times.

Agree. I'm as guilty as anyone of taking a thread off track, but when pointed out, the best thing is to either knock it on the head, continue the discussion at the more appropriate thread or set up a new thread. Particularly when it is just going over old territory.

This afternoon I walked past 8 outbound L1 replacement services on my way to Central between 17:30 and 18:00. While 2 had full length advertising film making it impossible to gain an accurate read, the other 6 all had single digit loads, certainly no sign of overcrowding.

[In Transit]

Let's face it, if the Light Rail replacement is run using Sydney's usual approach to rail replacement, having sufficient capacity won't be a problem. Quite the reverse - the streets of the inner west will be full of a plague of empty buses, a multiple of the number actually required, and with marshals doing their best to outnumber passengers. Linto63's observation seems to bear that out.

It's funny how in Sydney gold plating usually only extends to buses when it's not regular bus passengers involved... some might say that regular bus passengers can be lucky to get the fundamentals, let alone any gold leaf.