Inner West Light Rail observations

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matthewg
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by matthewg »

Any Citadis allocated to the IWLR route probably would be stabled on the fan of the Lilyfield maintenance centre. They wouldn't have to go back to Randwick every night. They would have to cycle them through Pyrmont for cleaning though. Stuff some of the Urbos 3 up the back of Lilyfield and 2 or more Citadis would be able to get into Pyrmont for cleaning. They were planning to run 14 cars on the IWLR so there should be space to store at least 2 extra cars somewhere without too much trouble.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

So. Who's going to get the scoop pic of a Citadis in Dulwich Hill which we know this government will make happen for the almighty politics?
Those light bars will be quite a sight there.
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Jurassic_Joke
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

matthewg wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:38 am Any Citadis allocated to the IWLR route probably would be stabled on the fan of the Lilyfield maintenance centre. They wouldn't have to go back to Randwick every night. They would have to cycle them through Pyrmont for cleaning though. Stuff some of the Urbos 3 up the back of Lilyfield and 2 or more Citadis would be able to get into Pyrmont for cleaning. They were planning to run 14 cars on the IWLR so there should be space to store at least 2 extra cars somewhere without too much trouble.
14 Citadis - interesting, the increase over the current 12 CAF trams - I’m guessing because the Citadis will run at a lower speed than the CAFs?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Swift wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:05 am So. Who's going to get the scoop pic of a Citadis in Dulwich Hill which we know this government will make happen for the almighty politics?
Those light bars will be quite a sight there.
It might help if we knew exactly when they carry out the testing. However, I walked past Capitol Square stop yesterday again and constructions still not finished, there are construction barricades actually sitting on the tracks at the moment, which would obstruct the trams so definitely not on that section of the route at least for now. And speaking of which, as I earlier said, I don’t think this construction is regular paving works - to me, looks like in addition to replacing the pavement they could be actually redoing the wheelchair accessible hump for the Citadis as it looked to be demolished but let’s see what comes out at the end
hornetfig
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by hornetfig »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:29 am 14 Citadis - interesting, the increase over the current 12 CAF trams - I’m guessing because the Citadis will run at a lower speed than the CAFs?
He means additional trams are presently on order for the L1 service, so there must be planned storage space for them.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:51 pm
Swift wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:05 am So. Who's going to get the scoop pic of a Citadis in Dulwich Hill which we know this government will make happen for the almighty politics?
Those light bars will be quite a sight there.
It might help if we knew exactly when they carry out the testing. However, I walked past Capitol Square stop yesterday again and constructions still not finished, there are construction barricades actually sitting on the tracks at the moment, which would obstruct the trams so definitely not on that section of the route at least for now. And speaking of which, as I earlier said, I don’t think this construction is regular paving works - to me, looks like in addition to replacing the pavement they could be actually redoing the wheelchair accessible hump for the Citadis as it looked to be demolished but let’s see what comes out at the end
Testing is being done at night. There are already videos around of a Citadis on the Central loop and somewhere on the main line. Would not be hard to move the barriers, the work there is being done on pavements.
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boronia
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

hornetfig wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:17 pm
Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:29 am 14 Citadis - interesting, the increase over the current 12 CAF trams - I’m guessing because the Citadis will run at a lower speed than the CAFs?
He means additional trams are presently on order for the L1 service, so there must be planned storage space for them.
They are still quite some time away.

I have to wonder if there are 14 Citadis (7 sets) available? School/uni holidays might free up a couple of sets, but these might be needed for sporting events around Xmas - New Year?
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:29 am
14 Citadis - interesting, the increase over the current 12 CAF trams - I’m guessing because the Citadis will run at a lower speed than the CAFs?
I'd anticipate a general slowing down of all the Sydney tram systems when the long-term consequences of running fixed bogie trams on curving tracks become obvious (if they haven't already). This happened previously with the Sydney Light Rail Variotram operation. They soon lost their enthusiasm for 80 km/h running. The L1/2/3 services are now running a few minutes faster than their contract obligation and the need to please SE Sydney commuters has passed, so there would be no penalty for slowing them down a little. Just a great pity when it was so unnecessary if TfNSW had chosen the right type of tram.

They may have already discovered track wear issues (certainly on IWLR over the years) and it's highly possible that the cracking in the CAFs is related to the stresses transmitted by the fixed bogies to the body under cornering. This paper briefly covers the issues. Figures 3 and 4 in particular pertain to Sydney and figure 6 shows the two different types of bogie, with the possibility of additional stress on the underframe of the body being evident with the fixed bogie.

http://www.railway2007.fd.cvut.cz/proce ... +Kolar.pdf
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Maybe the best solution is curve mitigation -make them more gradual.
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moa999
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

Good luck through say Pyrmont.

The 90deg turns on L1 via Central got possibly be altered by sending the tram up towards Broadway, as was seen in some of the Central Hotel suggestions that were raised some time ago.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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It would require an even sharper turn to get from Hay St into Pitt St and v/v.

This was the reason the existing connection goes north from Hay St, southbound would have been too tight.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ms_JAo7BmYY

10 news understands that it would be 2 months give or take before we’d see Citadis running in passenger service on L1.

I also wonder, wouldn’t they not need some time to train drivers on operating the new rolling stock here or maybe thats partially what the 2 months is for
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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I've seen a few L3 services with a staff "passenger" in the driving cab, maybe they are starting famil already?
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Swift wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:19 pm Maybe the best solution is curve mitigation -make them more gradual.
All tight curves should have transition curves, but I haven't studied the lines to see whether this is always the case. The modern NSW light rail tracks have a minimum standard curve radius of 25 metres which is now the typical standard minimum for fixed bogie trams. However the curves at the entry and exit of the Central station ramps are 20 metre radius (as well as the Pitt St one having significant vertical curvature). This obviously places significant stress of the fixed bogie trams over a period of time. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a contributing factor to the structural problems in the CAFs. The Dulwich Hill line from Pyrmont westwards has railway standard curves and shouldn't in theory present any problem to even fixed bogie trams.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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tonyp wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:59 pm The Dulwich Hill line from Pyrmont westwards has railway standard curves and shouldn't in theory present any problem to even fixed bogie trams.
I wondered how the goods trains negotiated those curves around Pyrmont when I went to have a look at them one time. No way a V set carriage could go over them with another train passing.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Swift wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:31 pm
tonyp wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:59 pm The Dulwich Hill line from Pyrmont westwards has railway standard curves and shouldn't in theory present any problem to even fixed bogie trams.
I wondered how the goods trains negotiated those curves around Pyrmont when I went to have a look at them one time. No way a V set carriage could go over them with another train passing.
But they were mostly short fixed 4 wheel or bogie freight wagons then, so not an issue. They were never designed for longer passenger carriages, let alone V sets. I worked there for a time, delivering goods to the Darling Harbour freight yards.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Transtopic wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:18 am
But they were mostly short fixed 4 wheel or bogie freight wagons then, so not an issue. They were never designed for longer passenger carriages, let alone V sets. I worked there for a time, delivering goods to the Darling Harbour freight yards.
Makes sense it was a goods only railway. I used to think it was a waste a railway that traversed such interesting areas with an arched viaduct was only used by goods trains. At least we got to see sine form of passenger use eventually.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

boronia wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:30 pm
hornetfig wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:17 pm

He means additional trams are presently on order for the L1 service, so there must be planned storage space for them.
I have to wonder if there are 14 Citadis (7 sets) available? School/uni holidays might free up a couple of sets, but these might be needed for sporting events around Xmas - New Year?
Ah yes, the LX special event service between Central and Moore Park whenever somethings on in the precinct.

Easy fix - just run it with buses instead and maybe finally use the Moore Park bus interchange which has all this time just sat and gathered dust? Buses can still get the job done of a short shuttle and the trams would be far more useful serving on L1
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

Is the interchange at Kingsford Juniors being used yet?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:56 am
Easy fix - just run it with buses instead
That would require seven buses with six extra drivers to do the job of one tram with one driver, not to mention traffic congestion issues.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote: They were never designed for longer passenger carriages, let alone V sets.
72 foot bogie passenger carriages operated on the line with no dramas on steam hauled specials in the 1990s.
tonyp wrote: That would require seven buses with six extra drivers to do the job of one tram with one driver, not to mention traffic congestion issues.
Bit more expensive to operate, but is a system that has worked for the last 60 years.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:48 am Bit more expensive to operate, but is a system that has worked for the last 60 years.
Seriously? They moved only a fraction of the numbers moved by the previous tram system. The deficiency was made up by walking and driving, helped by declining attendance at events over the years.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

Everybody manages to get to and from the SCG / SFS, so there isn't a problem. Not as if those who drive are going to give it up because there is a tram in lieu of a bus to and from Central.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Swift wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:01 am Is the interchange at Kingsford Juniors being used yet?
Yes, check the CSE thread.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

So far so good. Would be nice to see some daytime testing soon as well

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/hig ... l#comments
A Transport for NSW spokeswoman on Sunday said early tests of the CBD trams had proven successful, with more to come in coming weeks before any decision is made.
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