Inner West Light Rail observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

rtt_rules wrote: Wed Oct 08, 2025 10:43 pm The more I looked into the this the more I agree non pivoting on tracks with lots of tight corners is surely a F-up. The bogies will try and dig into the rail at the same spot on every pass with their near flat wheels not helping to steer the fixed bogie.
Yes, it's obvious and has been known in the industry since biblical times, but arose as a "solution" in the 1990s in order to get a stepless low gangway through the bogies by fixing the bogies in place and using short body sections to do the steering. It was also a cheaper solution to manufacture. However, it didn't solve the stresses and track damage and was directly the cause of the damage to the CAFs and the high rate of track wear on the Sydney light rail lines in general.

In the 2000s, the industry overcame the engineering challenges to having swivelling bogies under a stepless low gangway and we can see in the table in that article that about half the models of modern low-floor trams available today have swivelling bogies and the number is growing. Even Alstom is using them, having acquired the technology from the former Bombardier and of course that's where the Melbourne E and G classes come from. Too late for Sydney though, which got the cheap deals thanks to TfNSW's engineering ignorance.
Linto63
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 5:35 amThe Coalition kept Freshwater as a back-up for demand peaks. It didn't reintroduce most of the class and use them to elimimate one fast ferry every hour, thus diminishing the quality of the service.
In January 2023 the Emerald class operated three times hourly departing Manly at xx:00, xx:20 and xx:40. Today there are still three Emerald services per hour, departing at xx:00, xx:15 and xx:45 with the Freshwater opearted service departing at xx:30.
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 6:49 am
tonyp wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 5:35 amThe Coalition kept Freshwater as a back-up for demand peaks. It didn't reintroduce most of the class and use them to elimimate one fast ferry every hour, thus diminishing the quality of the service.
In January 2023 the Emerald class operated three times hourly departing Manly at xx:00, xx:20 and xx:40. Today there are still three Emerald services per hour, departing at xx:00, xx:15 and xx:45 with the Freshwater opearted service departing at xx:30.
This is not the thread for it, but look at that half hour gap. There should be an Emerald in there, not a Freshwater. They've reduced commuters' access to consistent fast service. It makes as much sense as replacing every fourth metro service with a slow suburban train. There's no rational basis for it whatsoever. It's just stupid political posturing to the detriment of best practice public transport. But I guess that's Labor's typical approach to public transport - posturing, not doing.
Linto63
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

Off topic discussion on Manly ferry service continued here.
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Another insight into the fallacy of "off the shelf" and its tram variant, the standard "World Tram", ignorantly parrotted by TfNSW and even OTSI.

Although there are models of trams with seemingly "standard" specifications, capable jurisdictions ensure that procurements of trams are suited to the unique characteristics of geography and urban form of each specific city. A bespoke product typically ensures that problems, like structural cracking and track wear, don't arise as they might in a tram that's been selected "off the shelf". The "World Trams" that NSW has chosen were designed for grid cities where routes are in straight lines without lots of tight corners and twists and turns. Of course a manufacturer with any integrity should advise the client that a standard design may not be suited to their city, but of course when it's obvious that the client is poorly informed for making assessments, then a poor outcome is inevitable.

This video is obviously promotional, but it provides insight into how a tram is designed and produced for specific cities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9BDMeIudJs
Randomness
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Randomness »

https://transportnsw.info/news/2025/ext ... rail-route
From Friday 21 November, there will be an increase of around 150 extra L1 Dulwich Hill light rail services per week.

The service will run more frequently in the evenings, on weekends, and public holidays. This will deliver better connections for both local residents and the expected six million annual visitors to the new Sydney Fish Market when it opens on Monday 19 January 2026.

On weekends and public holidays from 10am – 7pm, the service will run to a 6 minute frequency, adding an extra two services every hour.

From Sunday to Thursday nights from 7pm – 9pm, the service will run to a 10 minute frequency. After 9pm, services resume to the normal 15 minute frequency.

On Friday and Saturday nights between 7pm – 11pm, the service will run to a 10 minute frequency. After 11pm , services resume to the normal 15 minute frequency.

These improvements mean shorter wait times and smoother journeys during popular travel periods. Use the Trip Planner to plan your travel.
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alleve
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by alleve »

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... reen-space

Redevelopment of Wentworth Park greyhound racing track, expanding the number of new homes around Fish Market and Wentworth Park L1 stops to 7000+
rtt_rules
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by rtt_rules »

alleve wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2025 1:29 pm https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... reen-space

Redevelopment of Wentworth Park greyhound racing track, expanding the number of new homes around Fish Market and Wentworth Park L1 stops to 7000+
Is L1 up to it ?
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

rtt_rules wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2025 10:44 pm Is L1 up to it ?
L1 has a superb terminus at Central where it could turn around a tram every minute or less if it needed to. It's the design stupidity of the Dulwich Hill terminus (combined with lack of efficient intermediate turnarounds) that prevent the service reaching its potential capacity. They could also achieve more turnarounds with a quicker journey time, but they stuffed the potential for that with the system/safeworking design and choice of trams.
rtt_rules
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by rtt_rules »

tonyp wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2025 11:10 pm
rtt_rules wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2025 10:44 pm Is L1 up to it ?
L1 has a superb terminus at Central where it could turn around a tram every minute or less if it needed to. It's the design stupidity of the Dulwich Hill terminus (combined with lack of efficient intermediate turnarounds) that prevent the service reaching its potential capacity. They could also achieve more turnarounds with a quicker journey time, but they stuffed the potential for that with the system/safeworking design and choice of trams.
Yup, as discussed previously I think the fastest and most practical solution is to install a shunt neck at Lillyfield as increasing the frequency beyond Lillyfield is a bit pointless.
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

rtt_rules wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2025 11:21 pm Yup, as discussed previously I think the fastest and most practical solution is to install a shunt neck at Lillyfield as increasing the frequency beyond Lillyfield is a bit pointless.
It needs to be between the two tracks, not that storage siding for the depot that's off to one side.
gascoyne
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by gascoyne »

The terminus at Central may well be "superb" but it suffers from what happens in Hay St, particularly at the George St and Darling Drive intersections. You won't get an L1 each way every minute through those bottlenecks when tramsets are 33 metres long and are being driven like Grandma with L plates.

L1's most pressing needs include a second CBD terminus that does not involve crossing George St. I'd suggest restoring the tracks up the Goods Line and putting a new terminus behind UTS building 6.
Last edited by gascoyne on Wed Dec 10, 2025 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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alleve
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by alleve »

rtt_rules wrote: Tue Dec 09, 2025 10:44 pm Is L1 up to it ?
Im not sure if the L1 will be that heavily affected by it. If you're trying to get to the north of the CBD, it'd make more sense to walk up to the Pymont metro instead. If you're trying to get to Railway Sq or Elizabeth St, you might be better off catching the 501, 433 or 431. If you want to get to the east, you'd catch the 370. Broadway is in walking distance. The L1 only really makes sense if you're either

A. Disabled/less mobile and unable to walk any distance
B. Going to Central or Chinatown
C. Going to the inner west
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boronia
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

gascoyne wrote: Wed Dec 10, 2025 11:45 am The terminus at Central may well be "superb" but it suffers from what happens in Hay St, particularly at the George St and Darling Drive intersections. You won't get an L1 each way every minute through those bottlenecks when tramsets are 33 metres long and are being driven like Grandma with L plates.

L1's most pressing needs include a second CBD terminus that does not involve crossing George St. I'd suggest restoring the tracks up the Goods Line and putting a new terminus behind UTS building 6.
The only “bottleneck” at George St is from the L2/L3 trams which pass through on average once every 2-3 minutes.
An alternative terminus could be provided by a crossover between Paddy’s stop and George St. One of those Melbourne style portable crossovers would be ideal for extended delays; some permanent OHW and fittings in the ground to secure it would allow rapid installation.
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Full tram priority is needed along Hay St and at Darling Drive. George St is fine except for the trams on both lines being driven like old dodderers.
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