Inner West Light Rail observations

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boronia
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

At least we have one informed comment that explains the problem
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As I recall, the NSW demanded that the trams be longer than the normal design for this model. This was to enable each tram car to carry more passengers - the NSW government felt that without the capacity the trams would not be popular. NSW could have just ordered more tram cars, but that would put the price up. At the time, CAF warned that these were the longest trams in the world, and not suitable for Sydney's comparatively winding streetscape (unlike cities like Melbourne with long, straight roads that run for kilometres without a bend). But as usual, the NSW Govt was watching the purse, and watching the electoral impact, and ignoring quality and safety.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

Which given Alstom has 45m models (eg. Citadis 505) and CAF offers the Urbos 3 in up to 9 segments stretching 56m long is factually incorrect.

And given the track was there before the trains, CAF knew exactly what they would be running on.

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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:48 am72 foot bogie passenger carriages operated on the line with no dramas on steam hauled specials in the 1990s.
The specific concern would be about two trains passing each other - on the double track - with longer carriages on curves which might overhang. A single special train should be okay (though they still would have checked for areas with curves in tunnels and cuttings, I'm sure).
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

CAF knows exactly what their trams are in for. The curves at Central are five metres tighter radius than the tram is designed for. They just wanted the sales. Maybe they informed TfNSW of the risk, maybe they didn't. Maybe TfNSW signed a risk waiver, maybe they didn't. The truth will lie somewhere between the two.

The speed issue is unclear. There's no problem on the former railway line. Does CAF mean they were going around those Central curves too fast? If they went any slower they would be at a standstill. Watch this space.

The Alstom trams will eventually have the same issue. Again, those curves are 5 metres tighter radius than the trams are designed for. A certain commissioning agency should have had the knowledge or advice to buy trams with swivelling bogies. Same for CSELR imho. Skoda manufactures a model for RNV Germany that has swivelling bogies and comes in 30, 40 or 60 metre length and can be built to Sydney gauge, width, fully low floor and other specification variations. Wonder if TfNSW and its consultants know about this, or did they just go to the manufacturers they knew about? They did, after all, say early on that they would encourage solutions proposed by manufacturers rather than coming up with solutions themselves. Well, Alstom and CAF have certainly solved it for them.

https://www.skoda.cz/en/reference/tramc ... -smart-rnv
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

jpp42 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:07 pmThe specific concern would be about two trains passing each other - on the double track - with longer carriages on curves which might overhang. A single special train should be okay (though they still would have checked for areas with curves in tunnels and cuttings, I'm sure).
The last 4 wheel stock was withdrawn in about 1985, the line remained open for another decade. There are pictures of the Edwin Davey Mill traffic, which was the last before the line was closed beyond Rozelle in 1996, was operated with bogie wagons. The railway line may have also been on a tighter alignment to the tram line, as side platforms had to be accommodated on the latter. Either way the line obviously was wide enough for the rolling stock that used it, had it not then it would have been singled.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Article has been updated.

Central to Lilyfield section reopens in February with a 15 min frequency. Lilyfield to Dulwich Hill reopens in the “following months”

Very keen to see Citadis finally in passenger service here
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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I'd be okay with a 15-minute frequency if they would publish proper timetables (and adhere to them when possible - e.g. not leaving a terminus early).
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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NSW can achieve anything when it wants to. The problem is the last part.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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We need to be more specific - I think the change in minister contributes towards this as he together Howard Collins appear to be more down to earth compared with Constance who had big ideas but generally could not deliver them.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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boronia wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:32 pm Apparently they will be using the Me-Mel, which I think was trialled on this route as on-demand a couple of years ago.
It is now being tracked with Me Mel shown as the vessel operating it.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Stokes and Collins at press conference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAVPO79PHvo
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Fleet Lists wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:26 pm We need to be more specific - I think the change in minister contributes towards this as he together Howard Collins appear to be more down to earth compared with Constance who had big ideas but generally could not deliver them.
I have the impression that Stokes doesn't like situations to fester and tells TfNSW to find a solution now. Pity he won't remain in the portfolio.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Fleet Lists wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:26 pm We need to be more specific - I think the change in minister contributes towards this as he together Howard Collins appear to be more down to earth compared with Constance who had big ideas but generally could not deliver them.
Stokes does come across as a bread and butter transport minister and that's an enormous relief.
Howard is a good bloke stifled by how the system works here. That's my overwhelming impression.

What makes people think Stokes won't last? I think I already partly answered that.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Collins is a good media "spin doctor" on top of his other management skills.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

More detail. I did predict a slower trip. It appears that they have taken two coupled sets from CSELR = 4 x 30 metre trams.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/ ... 98d4d1bad3
Trams borrowed from CBD, South East lines to run on Inner West route

Trams from other light rail lines will be repurposed for travel between Central and Lilyfield from February — but critics say thousands of inner west commuters will still be inconvenienced.

James O'Doherty

December 16, 2021 - 8:54PM

Trams from Sydney’s CBD and southeast lines will be repurposed between Central and Lilyfield to provide a reduced service on part of the Inner West Light Rail route from February.

But passengers will still need to change to a bus to get all the way to Dulwich Hill until the middle of next year, and the cracked Spanish trams that were recently taken out of service will not be fixed until the October long weekend.

Further testing needs to be done to ensure trams from the CBD and southeast lines can work on the inner west route, and drivers still need to be trained in driving the vehicles.

Transport for NSW CEO Howard Collins said he was “pretty confident” the plan would work.

“(I’m) 95 per cent absolutely sure that we’re going to get there by February,” he said.

Mr Collins said the final weight test of the different trams on the inner-west tracks still needed to occur.

He said one of his “biggest concerns” was that taking some trams out of the CBD and southeast lines might impact customers, but said he was “absolutely confident” that passengers would not be affected.

Inner West Light Rail passengers will need to pay full fare to go between Lilyfield and Central when services are restored even though the journey will be slower, and anyone going to Dulwich Hill would need to change to a replacement bus.

“We will progressively restore services to the Inner West Light Rail. It’s planned that by mid year, we will have a full service operating along the route,” Transport Minister Rob Stokes said.

Mr Stokes said all the cracked trams are set to be completed by the October long weekend.

He said this was a “significant improvement” on the original time frame for fixing the trams, which could have taken 18 months.

Labor’s transport spokeswoman Jo Haylen welcomed the return of Central to Lilyfield services, but said “thousands of passengers will still have to wait until at least October next year for a normal service”.

“Passengers shouldn’t be paying full fare for a shuttle service that’s less frequent and slower. If the government wants to provide half a light rail service, then the least they can do is also halve the fare,” Ms Haylen said.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Aurora »

Labor’s transport spokeswoman Jo Haylen welcomed the return of Central to Lilyfield services, but said…

“Passengers shouldn’t be paying full fare for a shuttle service that’s less frequent and slower. If the government wants to provide half a light rail service, then the least they can do is also halve the fare,” Ms Haylen said.
Once again, populist and easy ideas when you are the opposition and it isn’t your responsibility, just shovel more taxpayers money in from that big pot of free money. Can guarantee if the shoe were on the other foot, they’d be more cautious about throwing commentary like that around.

They may as well run no replacement at all until they can get the trams running if that’s their line of thinking. The Inner West is not exactly a dead zone for transport.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

Any hope of Parramatta getting a fleet of Skodas, or are yet more inferior fixed boogeyman trams from the amateurish Western European makers locked in?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Parramatta is a done deal. NSW has all its trams for the next 30 years unless something cracks up earlier (which is quite possible).
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Done like a dinner...
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Footage of daytime testing of the Citadis on IWLR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_U1aPSepPg

From the linked video, here’s a sneak peak of what the gap between the tram and platform at Rozelle Bay will look like
47787331-E79C-4E31-8813-F71C0ADB0D99.jpeg
And Convention, although the optical zoom might make the gap look a bit bigger than it actually is
96ABDEB0-1448-4875-A7D2-482079B99CD2.jpeg
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Noel »

Changes are coming (from tomorrow I am led to believe) for the bus replacement operators.

2L1 will be operated by Keolis Downer Northern Beaches.
3L1 will be operated by Transdev NSW.
4L1 will be operated by State Transit.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Confirmed in Anytrip this morning although I had to re-enter 2LI in my filter.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Discussion on change of Transport minister moved to viewtopic.php?t=92114&p=1085389#p1085389 where this is also being discussed.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Fleet Lists wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:32 pm
boronia wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:32 pm Apparently they will be using the Me-Mel, which I think was trialled on this route as on-demand a couple of years ago.
It is now being tracked with Me Mel shown as the vessel operating it.
Today it is being tracked but with a number in place of the vessel name
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