CBD & South East Light Rail

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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:27 pm
boronia wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:09 pm
[The building across the road has a "transport history" of its own].
cse22 013 (Small).jpg
Did a tram run into it coming out of Ascot St?
Not that I'm aware of, but a Transport Minister got sprung running out of it a few years back.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:16 pm
Not that I'm aware of, but a Transport Minister got sprung running out of it a few years back.
Oh, that one! :lol:
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

Both lines are fully closed this weekend for major "maintenance works".

Replacement buses are running, but only to/from Central, leaving passengers to make other arrangements to get into the CBD.

Why don't the buses operate all the way to Circular Quay? Inconveniencing passengers seem to be Transdev speciality.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:18 pm
Replacement buses are running, but only to/from Central, leaving passengers to make other arrangements to get into the CBD.

Why don't the buses operate all the way to Circular Quay? Inconveniencing passengers seem to be Transdev speciality.
There's no longer a roadway along George St for buses to drive along! While checking that, I discovered that apparently there's no bus service to Millers Point and the Rocks any longer. People are expected to walk from Wynyard according to the journey planner. That's pretty tough. You'd think they would have routed a service along Kent St to get to these suburbs but they've been abandoned apparently.

Perhaps they could extend a branch of the George St line down there:

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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

There is a street called Elizabeth St which goes all the way to Circular Quay.

The 324/325 service the Millers Point area from Hickson Rd.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:57 pm
The 324/325 service the Millers Point area from Hickson Rd.
There is a bit of both horizontal and vertical shortfall there! Those routes should continue around Dawes Point into George St North, then Lower Fort St to Argyle Place. That's quite a brutal cutback.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

Route 311 uses the same terminus on the corner of Argyle and Kent Streets as routes 431 and 433 did until curtailed in 2015.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

311 certainly gets closer, if from a different direction, though quite slender half-hourly service. It's funny that none of these routes turned up on a journey planner search, only walks from the vicinity of Wynyard. There must be some Olympic-standard walkers at TfNSW.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:13 pm
boronia wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:57 pm
The 324/325 service the Millers Point area from Hickson Rd.
There is a bit of both horizontal and vertical shortfall there! Those routes should continue around Dawes Point into George St North, then Lower Fort St to Argyle Place. That's quite a brutal cutback.
There was the same shortfall for people living along Hickson Rd in the 431/4 era.

An alternative might be to use Dalgety Rd or Pottinger St to get up the hill as George St North is usually closed at weekends.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:25 pm 311 certainly gets closer, if from a different direction, though quite slender half-hourly service. It's funny that none of these routes turned up on a journey planner search, only walks from the vicinity of Wynyard. There must be some Olympic-standard walkers at TfNSW.
Did you remember to tweak the options to Least walking, walk up to 5 min, and slow walking speed and possibly eliminate trains for whatever search you did?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

There have never been any services beyond the current Millers Point terminus. It was probably grossly over serviced pre-2015, but that would have been a result of it being a convenient layover point. Route 311 is one of those round the houses routes that nobody ever travels end to end on. A 30 minute frequency is probably overly generous.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

IIRC, there was a period when some evening 431/3 services were extended down to Hickson Rd to serve theatre patrons?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

The 431/433 replaced the Millers Point tram, that's the reason they followed that route. Until recent years nobody was living in Hickson Rd. Now that there's residential and entertainment activity down there it would make sense to extend the new Hickson Rd routes around Dawes Point to George St North and Argyle Place via Lower Fort St.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Cazza »

The 311 appears to be pretty well patronised from Elizabeth Bay/Potts Point into the City. I don't mind the fact it extends right up to Barangaroo/Millers Point as it provides a solid cross town connection from the east of the City up towards Wynyard and Barangaroo (where the T4 line doesn't cover) along with the 324/325. It also means it doesn't need to layover in the heart of the City.

On a side note, you can't grow patronage by reducing service frequencies. If anything, you could probably chop off the Central -> Kings Cross leg of the 311 (replace with an Anzac Ave service that heads towards Edgecliff) and then increase the remaining route to 15 min headways. The densities and liveliness of the Potts Point/E. Bay peninsula should not be overlooked.

I don't necessarily agree that there needs to be a direct service into The Rocks itself. The 324/5 run pretty deep into Dawes Point, and it's no more than (an extremely pleasant) 15-odd min walk from anywhere on that peninsula back to Circular Quay. Here, you can catch train, tram and bus services to pretty much every corner of the CBD and continue your journey from there.

For a bit of a throwback, check out this street view image for some terminating 431's/433's. If you cruise around the around and use the timeline feature, you can see many different buses around, including a Sydney Explorer at one point: shorturl.at/opDMQ
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

The 311 does provide a convenient connection from Central and Oxford St to St Vincent's Hospital, there'd be an outcry if it was chopped. The 389 does connect from Town Hall and East Sydney.

Years ago there were two separate services on this route to Central or the City (and even to Pyrmont).
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Cazza »

boronia wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:14 pm The 311 does provide a convenient connection from Central and Oxford St to St Vincent's Hospital, there'd be an outcry if it was chopped.
Route 440 runs between Central and Oxford St, operating more frequently too. I understand the 400m walk from the Taylor Square stops may not be the easiest for some visiting the hospital, but (as you said) the 389 provides more of a door-to-door opportunity for those that do require it.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Now that there's residential and entertainment activity down there it would make sense to extend the new Hickson Rd routes around Dawes Point to George St North and Argyle Place via Lower Fort St.
There is probably no real need, there are no residences on HIckson Road beyond the 324/325 terminus and those on Lower Fort Street are at worst only a few hundred metres from either the 311 or 324/325.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by pgt »

boronia wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 pm IIRC, there was a period when some evening 431/3 services were extended down to Hickson Rd to serve theatre patrons?
Yes there was... the 324/325 now appears to start from here full time since it replaced the 431/433 in that area.
Timetable says last 324 service is normally 0126, but on Friday and Saturday nights (ie. Saturday/Sunday early morning) there are two services after that at 0216 and 0306 [1 minute later on early Sunday mornings].
(Last 325 service is 11<something> PM depending on day of week and last 311 service is at a similar hour, possibly a bit later).
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Stu »

Clarification and/or confirmation relating to some of the above comments.

Route 311 started using Millers Point terminu from 28/10/2012, swapped with routes 339, X39 and 343. The bus stop is TSN 200099 Argyle St at Kent St which is one bus stop (almost next to) before the former routes 431 & 433 Millers Point terminus which was TSN 200098 Argyle St at Watson Rd. From 2012, services after approximately 19:00 used to operate only as far as Circular Quay (Loftus & Bridge St's) and on Friday & Saturday nights some late night services extended to Circular Quay (Loftus & Alfred St's). The City CBD bus network changes of 04/10/2015 caused route 311 to be rerouted via Town Hall and to operate to and from Millers Point full time up until the last respective services in each direction.

Routes 431 & 433 have not used Millers Point since the City CBD bus network changes 04/10/2015 for the construction of the CSELR on George St. The former bus terminus was the former tram terminus.

Route 433 late night services were extended to and
from Millers Point to Walsh Bay on 19/11/2010 and ceased on 12/05/2013 due to poor patronage.

Routes 324 & 325 were rerouted to Walsh Bay due to City CBD bus network changes 04/10/2015 for the construction of the CSELR on George St.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Can they look at reinstating route 431’s old section through The Rocks (George St) to the Millers Point terminus now that construction works are long over? The bus stop shelter right under the Harbour Bridge still stands, although any information relating to the stop has been removed.

Can easily reach this old section now through Bridge St and then turning right into George St. It was really nice and a touristic no-brainer. Though it would have to be after the outdoor hospitality seating is removed in The Rocks as otherwise its a one way street
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:41 pm Can they look at reinstating route 431’s old section through The Rocks (George St) to the Millers Point terminus now that construction works are long over? The bus stop shelter right under the Harbour Bridge still stands, although any information relating to the stop has been removed.

Can easily reach this old section now through Bridge St and then turning right into George St. It was really nice and a touristic no-brainer. Though it would have to be after the outdoor hospitality seating is removed in The Rocks as otherwise its a one way street
The demographic that the old Millers Point tram and bus served (MSB, later Housing Commission tenants and port-related workers) have gone, replaced by multi-millionnaires who drive themselves. Demand probably fell off markedly and there are no tourists at the moment. When the tourists return it may pick up again and justify a service.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Can they look at reinstating route 431’s old section through The Rocks (George St) to the Millers Point terminus now that construction works are long over?
George Street now only has one lane; southbound between Argyle and Alfred Streets, and Argyle Street has been permanently closed to traffic between Harrington and George Streets. A route could in theory travel via George, Essex and Harrington Streets, but there is no real need, the residential parts of Millers Points are already adequately served by routes 311, 324 and 325.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Ray »

But still, another part of the CBD left with no services. No bus for the tourist unsure of how to get to The Rocks (as opposed to Walsh Bay). No more service to the Opera House, which has gone from a 15 minute service to zero. A moot point during covid, but all this happened well before the pandemic.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

If tourists want to get to The Rocks, or any other part of Sydney, they need to do some research (very easy these days) to find the most suitable transport options. The same would have applied when the 431/3 ran down George St. Many tourists 10 years ago would not have known that a bus to MILLERS POINT was the same as The Rocks (although some desto signs eventually showed both names); they still had to research where to catch this service.

Most tourists in that area would be looking at the Opera House, Circular Quay, etc anyway. The walk from George St up to Kent St is not an onerous task, and has tourist value in its own right.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

The only parts of the former Millers Point via George Street route now not served by public transport are 200 metres of George Street between Alfred and Argyle Streets, and 300 metres of Argyle Street between George and Lower Fort Streets. There are few if any residences along this route. The Rocks is only a short walk from Circular Quay station.

Was the Opera House served by any route services after the road on the eastern side was closed to make way for The Toaster in the mid-90s? Likewise, apart from the Sydney Explorer and the route 456 tourist shuttle in the early 90s, I don't think any regular services have extended into The Rocks beyond the corner of George and Argyle Streets, if so must have been many decades ago.
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