CBD & South East Light Rail

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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

This debacle with scavenging parts of a near new vehicle strikes me as another dark hallmark of private contractor operation. If it was totally state operated as I believe nature intends it, these shenanigans would not exist.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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Why did Nature intend that?????
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

It's not robbing parts from new vehicles meaning they can't be used, it is using parts that otherwise there is no need for. There have been plenty examples of operators, both private and public, parking up near new rolling stock to keep others in service, in both short and long term capacities.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Passenger 57 wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:02 pm Do you think that Alstom might have suckered the other members of its consortium or provided a deep discount to make up for added track maintenance costs? Looking at Wikipedia the remaining consortium once the one with Bombardier, iLinQ, dropped out was one without a tram manufacturer as a member, Sydney Connect. Do you know what vehicle Sydney Connect were offering? Anyway, having only two choices to pick from is bound to lead to a bad result. I'd get more quotes for jobs many orders of magnitude less. Nice spending other people's money.

Is there any prospect that Alstom could provide a better suited vehicle? If its uneconomical, the added vehicle maintenance costs are tolerable or the other consortium members are absorbing a major part of those costs too.

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if the Government is on the hook for added costs because of disclaimers and exclusions in the contract.
This type of tram - the Citadis, Bombardier Flexity, CAF Urbos - are cheaper to manufacture. That helps lower the consortium's bid price. Once one tenderer does that, they all do the same, offer the cheapest, least suitable tram. The way around that is for TfNSW to specify higher standards in the tender, but, as we know from other areas of public transport, that's not one of TfNSW's strong points. They don't seem to be aware of best practice or standards themselves. I remember at the time, TfNSW said that were encouraging industry-led ideas rather than being prescriptive themselves. That invites a bad outcome.

Can't quite recall which trams Sydney Connect were offering. It might have been CAF.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Glen »

Swift wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:30 pm This debacle with scavenging parts of a near new vehicle strikes me as another dark hallmark of private contractor operation. If it was totally state operated as I believe nature intends it, these shenanigans would not exist.
Oh really??

Dream on.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Glen wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:30 pm
Swift wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:30 pm This debacle with scavenging parts of a near new vehicle strikes me as another dark hallmark of private contractor operation. If it was totally state operated as I believe nature intends it, these shenanigans would not exist.
Oh really??

Dream on.
Are you ok? Taking that abit personal I think.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by matthewg »

Swift wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:30 pm This debacle with scavenging parts of a near new vehicle strikes me as another dark hallmark of private contractor operation. If it was totally state operated as I believe nature intends it, these shenanigans would not exist.
I first saw the practice on European systems that were still most definitely state or city-owned/operated. It's nothing to do with public/private and everything to do with parts availability.

All sorts of electronic components have crazy lead times at the moment and that's for mass-produced generic stuff.

So you need to predict what parts you will need a year in advance and get your order in.

My own employer has had orders for what was once considered common commodity boards take 6 months to be fulfilled. A big part of the problem is the industry's focus on 'Lean manufacturing'. No one holds a buffer of component parts, that has been optimised out. If any part of the chain gets interrupted, you have trouble. And Covid is still disrupting 'lean manufacturing' chains. And it's not just current COVID disruptions. COVID led to the shutdown to fab lines that had continuously run for years. Once the equipment became idle, it failed in various fashions. Restarting some lines has apparently become problematic,
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Appreciate the considered detailed explanation.
This is another example why private companies with their deranged money focus can't be trusted or relied upon these days to be diligent in delivery of service or goods when left to their devices. We need heavy tough regulation, not rampant capitalism running the show.
The government need to step in to correct their over emphasis on efficiency for squeezing out profit. Make it against the law for these just in time practises with say a minimum of 20% reserves of components at all times.
Government oversight at all times.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

Gosh you talk a lot of rubbish. 🙄
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Which I shall continue to believe in no matter what others think. Have an uneventful day.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Merc1107 »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:16 am Gosh you talk a lot of rubbish. 🙄
Is it though? The disruption of COVID, Ukraine war and the ongoing tensions on this side of the globe have highlighted the folly of relying too much on any one economy for exports, or imports critical to the function of our society.

Thankfully a few of our exporters seem to have found more lucrative alternatives since the spat with China, but others have not. Where things stand with imports, I don't know. In any case, the status-quo needs to change, as it has only fuelled corporate greed and the problems being faced now with highly vulnerable supply chains.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:16 am Make it against the law for these just in time practises with say a minimum of 20% reserves of components at all times.
Government oversight at all times.
Good luck with that. Just-in-time supply chains have been practised very successfully in Australian manufacturing since the 1950s and all sectors from the 1970s. It costs money to keep stuff in store. And it's not just a private sector issue. I recall a time when the PTC or one of its successors forgot to reorder parts for their Leyland buses and there was a big to-do, which the Labor government of the time used as an opportunity to smear Leyland, leading to some private operators coming to the defence of Leyland and pointing out that the problem was the government's own incompetence. There have been plenty of good reasons building up over the years for operational contracting of buses and ferries.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:06 am There have been plenty of good reasons building up over the years for operational contracting of buses and ferries.
The evidence suggests this will only ever work as well as the overseeing body. The contractors are in the game to make money, and will certainly exploit every available loophole to their gain.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:13 pm This type of tram - the Citadis, Bombardier Flexity, CAF Urbos - are cheaper to manufacture. That helps lower the consortium's bid price.
Yes, it will lower the capital cost of the trams themselves but as you have pointed out it increases the costs of maintenance of track work and the vehicles themselves. One mitigation as you have pointed out is lowering the speed around curves. Does that reduce the costs of maintenance sufficiently for a cheaper tram to still come out in front?

While TfNSW and its consultants might be truly clueless about tram operation all it should take are functional specifications in the tender such as average speed over the route in optimal traffic conditions (all green lights, fixed dwell time) and maximum level of noise. Provided the vehicle meets the functional specifications it shouldn't matter what vehicle type it is.

Even if TfNSW and its consultants are enlightened they may prefer to compromise on those factors to get the cheapest bid.
Last edited by Passenger 57 on Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

Sounds like a falling down in the procurement process rather than a government failing per se. That said the Leyland workforce spent much of the 1970s outside the factory huddled around a brazier on strike rather than inside it making parts creating supply problems globally.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Merc1107 »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:22 am That said the Leyland workforce spent much of the 1970s outside the factory huddled around a brazier on strike rather than inside it making parts creating supply problems globally.
I watched a short documentary from the 80s ages ago that compared what was ultimately British Leyland with their contemporaries (predominantly Volkswagen) on the continent. It won't come as a great surprise who had modernised, improved working conditions, assembly methods and productivity, and who was still doing things the old fashioned way.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

Passenger 57 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:21 am
tonyp wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:13 pm This type of tram - the Citadis, Bombardier Flexity, CAF Urbos - are cheaper to manufacture. That helps lower the consortium's bid price.
Yes, it will lower the capital cost of the trams themselves but as you have pointed out it increases the costs of maintenance of track work and the vehicles themselves. One mitigation as you have pointed out is lowering the speed around curves. Does that reduce the costs of maintenance sufficiently for a cheaper tram to still come out in front?

While TfNSW and its consultants might be truly clueless about tram operation all it should take are functional specifications in the tender such as average speed over the route in optimal traffic conditions (all green lights, fixed dwell time) and maximum level of noise. Provided the vehicle meets the functional specifications it shouldn't matter what vehicle type it is.

Even if TfNSW and its consultants are enlightened they may prefer to compromise on those factors to get the cheapest bid.
As the consortium would presumably be covering the costs of maintenance, the onus would be on it to select the most cost effective balance to meet the required specifications.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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tonyp wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:27 pm Without intending to pass judgement, isn't Rose Bay to inner west a journey that should be undertaken by PT?
Apologies that this is a bit off topic, but we have several problems that make this journey, and many other similar ones, take over an hour versus 20-30 minutes by car avoiding tolls, or 15 via CCT:
* Transfers in the city are problematic between suburban routes - we have no central bus station and many transfers require a walk of 4-5 blocks outdoors.
* There are no buses running via the CCT or similar motorways - why can't we have a Victoria Road service that diverts through the CCT en-route to Edgecliff or Bondi Junction for example?
* Route 324/325 takes a 10-minute diversion into Edgecliff bus interchange, for driver change and five minute wait - I get why it happens but it just takes forever. There's also can be waiting for timetable at Kings Cross, as well as difficult turns taking a while through there.
* The potentially fastest PT route to Rose Bay actually involves using a train to Edgecliff then transfer, but if you miss the connection the 324/325 is only a 15-minute service, which means you're either 15 minutes early (making the whole trip take long effectively), or too big a chance of being late to work. This kind of concern makes the car a much more viable option even when there can be variable traffic... at least you feel more in control.

Just thought I'd mention this as a spotlight on someone who really wants to be a PT user, but simply can't justify it, even in this inner city scenario. How would I fix this?
* remove en-route driver changes on routes like 324/325 which aren't really long enough to justify it. Maybe it requires stationing more facilities at termini and/or dead-running and driver transfers, but this needs to be done to remove the inconvenience to passengers.
* remove the diversion into Edgecliff interchange for the outbound 324/325 (at least inbound you don't have to cross New South Head Rd twice). Yes, this means pedestrians need to cross NSW Rd when transferring from the train, but it's a relatively safe crossing. Long term maybe a bridge or tunnel could be provided. Similar upgrades to improve journey times could apply on many other routes.
* introduce more routes that take advantage of motorways to be time-competitive with cars, especially for cross-suburban routes.
* longer term, we need to figure out better bus interchanges in the city. there's no easy answer short of tearing everything up to build a Brisbane-style underground interchange, which I'm not sure is the right answer either.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Passenger 57 »

boronia wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:20 am As the consortium would presumably be covering the costs of maintenance, the onus would be on it to select the most cost effective balance to meet the required specifications.
That would be the most sensible way to do things but it depends on the financial arrangements in the consortium. Are the infrastructure supplier and tram vendor profit sharing partners or merely suppliers? Do the higher tram maintenance costs bite Alstom or all the consortium partners?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

jpp42 wrote:
tonyp wrote: Without intending to pass judgement, isn't Rose Bay to inner west a journey that should be undertaken by PT?
Apologies that this is a bit off topic...
Way off topic
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

How would a bus from Victoria Rd to Rose Bay via the CCT handle passengers to/from the CBD and Kings Cross, both major traffic generators? It would also remove potential connections to the light rail.

I recall that the previous m50 service did not generate a lot of side to side traffic.

Yes, there is a lot of inconvenience in the current transfer arrangements, but creating it, rather than reducing it, seems to be a KPI target in TfNSW.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:45 am
Linto63 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:22 am That said the Leyland workforce spent much of the 1970s outside the factory huddled around a brazier on strike rather than inside it making parts creating supply problems globally.
I watched a short documentary from the 80s ages ago that compared what was ultimately British Leyland with their contemporaries (predominantly Volkswagen) on the continent. It won't come as a great surprise who had modernised, improved working conditions, assembly methods and productivity, and who was still doing things the old fashioned way.
I assume you're both referring to British Leyland UK, but BMC/Leyland Australia was a completely different kettle of fish. Unfortunately it was dependent on the UK parent for major capital investment in model programs and that ultimately tied the fate of the Australian company with the British parent. It was BMC Australia that introduced just-in-time manufacturing to Australia, was strike-free, had excellent working conditions, advanced manufacturing methods and good productivity. There were some quality control issues, but no more than was typical for Australian manufacturing at the time. At the same time, they produced excellent, advanced, safe cars with 97% Australian content, unlike VWs which were mobile coffins. Ironically, the Brits were offered VW as war reparations but declined it. When Leyland Australia opened up discussions with Toyota for a joint manufacturing venture, Lord Stokes at British Leyland knocked it on the head, saying that there was no way he was going to "deal with the Japs". The greatest threat to BMW/Leyland Australia was not the competition, but its parent company! Things were not too much different at Holden and Ford actually. Nobody believed that Australians were capable of doing things well - even better.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Passenger 57 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:21 am While TfNSW and its consultants might be truly clueless about tram operation all it should take are functional specifications in the tender such as average speed over the route in optimal traffic conditions (all green lights, fixed dwell time) and maximum level of noise. Provided the vehicle meets the functional specifications it shouldn't matter what vehicle type it is.
TfNSW was taking its advice on functional specifications from the manufacturers themselves (or consultants who obtained what knowledge they had from the manufacturers). Naturally, that produces a truly impartial outcome (not).
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:48 am
jpp42 wrote: Apologies that this is a bit off topic...
Way off topic
But an appreciated observation, like many on this forum that might be briefly off-topic.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Passenger 57 »

jpp42 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:31 am * Route 324/325 takes a 10-minute diversion into Edgecliff bus interchange, for driver change and five minute wait - I get why it happens but it just takes forever.
That should never happen in the peak and inbound through services do not go into the interchange, AFAIK. Yes, driver change can take a while.
There's also can be waiting for timetable at Kings Cross
You're complaining about a bus being ahead of schedule?
as well as difficult turns taking a while through there.
Not difficult but can be a bit slow due to having to cross Victoria St/Darlinghurst Rd and traffic bank up via 2 sets of lights including a right turn at one. Travelling down William St in the peak is worse. There used to be a late night diversion down Kings Cross Rd on Fri/Sat nights to avoid the turn into Bayswater Rd because of traffic.

* The potentially fastest PT route to Rose Bay actually involves using a train to Edgecliff then transfer, but if you miss the connection the 324/325 is only a 15-minute service
Only in the peak. It's faster to take the bus in the off-peak directly to Town Hall usually. As an aside the bus is always cheaper.
* remove the diversion into Edgecliff interchange for the outbound 324/325 (at least inbound you don't have to cross New South Head Rd twice). Yes, this means pedestrians need to cross NSW Rd when transferring from the train, but it's a relatively safe crossing. Long term maybe a bridge or tunnel could be provided. Similar upgrades to improve journey times could apply on many other routes.
Not really feasible in the peak unless you resume land as its a clearway. The other problem is some peak services operate from the interchange. Anyone concerned about journey time during the peak takes the train. Eliminating the diversion would be a benefit for those travelling by bus from the city off-peak. Somewhat of a disadvantage for train travellers and they would no longer be able to catch a just missed bus by taking the train.

(on topic bit)
Personally, I'd like to improve the transfer between road and rail. I'd like to see road vehicles make use of the railway. Trams would work best, but they're not going to make a come back on that route. (We'll be lucky to see them back on/parallel to Bondi Rd.) The ESR works well for people travelling from Bondi Junction but the poorer bus frequencies at Edgecliff negate the benefit of the quicker rail trip except in the peak.
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