CBD & South East Light Rail

[Swift]

Are they running decoupled sets in L2/3 or are they still steadfast in keeping them coupled?
Funny how they want to run them as the world's longest tram when we used to have single rigid trams not much longer than a bus, yet they are ultra conservative with the buses and steadfastly just about rely on 12m as the magic solution with the rubber tired counterparts.
NSW is Looney.

[Linto63]

Then there's the issue of getting all those buses through light cycles and the vastly greater number of drivers who have to be employed, increasing operating costs.

Given that 30 double trams sets have only allowed the region 9 fleet to be reduced by 40 buses would suggest that it hasn't generated massive savings. Yes there are other factors, such as resources being redeployed to beef up other services, but even so it hasn't generated the savings one would expect.

Are they running decoupled sets in L2/3 or are they still steadfast in keeping them coupled?

The sets are hard coupled, i.e. don't have auto couplers, so splitting has to be performed at the depot. While operating single sets would save on operating costs, the complexity of operating a combination of single and double sets has downsides. On balance it is better to run double sets consistently, for similar reasons all Sydney Trains services lengths that pass through the CBD were standardised at 8 carriages.

[Scott4570]

This Friday afternoon, March 4:-
L2 Service, 1542 hours Circular Quay to Randwick, consisted of Unit 23 coupled to Unit 56.
L1 Service, 1630 hours Central to Dulwich Hill, consisted of Unit 21.

[Linto63]

In terms of capacity, the X services are a drop in the bucket on top of the trams, rather than a major augmentation of the light rail which is quite capable of doing the whole job itself.

Between 1700 and 1800 there are 54 X bus services from Castlereagh Street. Add in the 12 route 373 and 396 services and buses account for nearly 40% of the capacity at that time of day. Granted that the number of express services does appear a bit of an overkill, or did when I noted most were carrying only a few passenger earlier in the year, but the trams were hardly bursting at the seams either.

[boronia]

Since Uni has restarted this month, the trams are carrying the sort of loads they were designed for.

Bus loadings are probably dependent on people going back to work in the CBD. The pandemic restrictions have lifted, but I suspect the weather is now holding people back?

[Linto63]

People don't stop going to work because it is raining. A sizeable proportion of commuters from the Eastern Suburbs to the cbd were white collar workers, many of whom will never return to commuting 5 days a week. It will be many years, if ever, before we see pre-pandemic patronage levels.

[swtt]

Since Uni has restarted this month, the trams are carrying the sort of loads they were designed for.

Bus loadings are probably dependent on people going back to work in the CBD. The pandemic restrictions have lifted, but I suspect the weather is now holding people back?

Slightly off course observation but could be related: the A3 northbound over the past week has become substantially more quiet, as I suspect the weather has held people back as their homes have been damaged

Without knowing whether there are some lower lying basins are in the south eastern suburbs, I suspect there would also be people's livelihoods affected due to the intense raining.

[boronia]

Another shutdown coming up for "Moore Park to Juniors Kingsford light rail stop improvement works" 14-17 March 8 pm to 5 am.

"to reduce the need for ongoing maintenance"....(seem to remember this phrase from the previous similar shutdown last year). Strange they couldn't have done this during the last weekend closure a couple of weeks ago when there was little other activity on this section?

From 14-16 March 9 pm to 1 am, no services between Chalmers St and CQ; buses on L3, trams on L2.

[In Transit]

It seems there is very little commitment to minimising shutdowns on the light rail - which also means either the contract is incredibly lenient on this front or TfNSW are happy to go along with this interpretation of "putting the customer at the heart of everything we do....." Or alternatively, it's both.

In many areas TfNSW is beset by limitations on expertise but more importantly by limitations on leadership, vision and commitment to delivering better outcomes (better for the community, for public transport etc, rather than career strengthening minimum outcomes). It's only natural that the light rail mode has the same problems.

[Merc1107]

Even from afar the constant mentions of weekend shutdowns is disturbing on such vital infrastructure.

[crimsontide]

It has suddenly dawned on the Government, that it might be a good idea to integrate L1&L2/L3.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ada ... 1646890041

[In Transit]

TfNSW in reactive mode, instead of originally planning effectively for the future (and by future, I mean the short as well as long term). A homogenised network was far too easily dismissed a fair while ago. Another example of TfNSW having to learn as they go, which really shouldn't be necessary for things like light rail (or indeed most aspects of public transport) given it's not exactly a new invention - there's generations of experience world wide. Who actually makes all these decisions - it's not like it's an isolated case of questionable original decisions which have failed to deliver....

[Qantas94Heavy]

Not sure if this is a recent change, but it seems the speed limit enforcement on the LRVs has been turned off at some <50 km/h parts of track, showing a crossed out speed symbol in place of e.g. 20 km/h limits on the driver display. Is this actually the case or were these LRVs just defective?

[Transport Buff]

Caught the light rail from Randwick to the city this morning. Had to complete a Customer Satisfaction Survey. Scanned a QR code and filled out the online form. Basic questions regarding the specific trip and light rail amenities, wayfinding, accessibility etc...
Never encountered this before. I understand this to be how they collect the data for the Customer Satisfaction Index, that used to come out twice yearly, but seems to be yearly now...

Sent from my Nokia 5.4 using Tapatalk

[tonyp]

Caught the light rail from Randwick to the city this morning. Had to complete a Customer Satisfaction Survey. Scanned a QR code and filled out the online form. Basic questions regarding the specific trip and light rail amenities, wayfinding, accessibility etc...
Never encountered this before. I understand this to be how they collect the data for the Customer Satisfaction Index, that used to come out twice yearly, but seems to be yearly now...

Sent from my Nokia 5.4 using Tapatalk

It's time for the May survey.

[Transport Buff]

Yeah that's what I thought too.

[tonyp]

What you get when you buy the wrong trams for the job. A photo by a contributor to Skyscraper City forum - the curve from the Railway colonnade into Hay St.



The speed limit was set at 5 km/h on this 20 metre radius curve in order to (unsuccessfully) minimise such damage. The Czech standard for speeds on curves for proper swivelling bogie trams (which would be similar all over Europe and likely Melbourne) is 15 km/h on a 20 metre radius curve. Similar wear will eventually occur even with swivelling bogies, but only after many more years. Fixed bogies are like angle grinders. The section of rail now has to be replaced of course, unless they're happy for the flange to run against the concrete for a while. Another shutdown.

A properly diligent commissioning agency would have acquired all this knowledge before procuring the system. Mind you, I have my own thought that a responsible vehicle supplier should, in the absence of such diligence, have informed the agency on this subject prior to final purchase decision, but not all manufacturers are the same. This is why the commissioning agency should fully inform itself, not "leave it up to industry to suggest solutions" as they said at the time.

Sometimes I think the average Joe in the street does better research when buying whitegoods than some mighty and highly educated government agencies. Perhaps it depends whether the money is coming from your own pocket or from that bottomless milch cow, the taxpayer.

[Passenger 57]

This is why the commissioning agency should fully inform itself, not "leave it up to industry to suggest solutions" as they said at the time.

It's not like buying whitegoods though. My admittedly extremely limited understanding is that the government is buying an all inclusive service. As long as the contract specifies the expectations of the buyer, include some measures by which they can be objectively determined or at at least indisputably decided upon by a mutually acceptable independent observer and has suitable remedies for the expectations not being met that should be good enough.

Sure the buyer still need to know what they want which is non-trivial but expertise is more focused on the legal side rather than the engineering side. The contract need not specify the type of bogies but rather levels of noise, running times etc and of course the route.

Not that I am confident the Government knows how to write these sort of tenders/contracts and possibly contracts are a zero sum game where one side has to lose for the other side to win. The compensation to Acciona was a bad start. We'll have to see what happens with the L1 dispute.

[tonyp]

It's not like buying whitegoods though. My admittedly extremely limited understanding is that the government is buying an all inclusive service. As long as the contract specifies the expectations of the buyer, include some measures by which they can be objectively determined or at at least indisputably decided upon by a mutually acceptable independent observer and has suitable remedies for the expectations not being met that should be good enough.

Sure the buyer still need to know what they want which is non-trivial but expertise is more focused on the legal side rather than the engineering side. The contract need not specify the type of bogies but rather levels of noise, running times etc and of course the route.

Not that I am confident the Government knows how to write these sort of tenders/contracts and possibly contracts are a zero sum game where one side has to lose for the other side to win. The compensation to Acciona was a bad start. We'll have to see what happens with the L1 dispute.

It's oversimpifying to compare it to whitegoods of course, but the underlying point is that the agency should have a basic level of knowledge in order to critically assess and remain in command of what it's being told by consultants, suppliers and other third parties. I watched the prior work that Queensland DoT did in house before it embarked on the whole process for the Gold Coast light rail and they did an excellent job skilling themselves up with the necessary knowledge before they even went out to engage consultants, let alone further along the design and procurement process. Incidentally, they do use fixed bogie trams on the Gold Coast, but the line is virtually straight except for one 25 metre curve and DoT knew that they were getting the right tram for the job.

[Passenger 57]

It's oversimpifying to compare it to whitegoods of course, but the underlying point is that the agency should have a basic level of knowledge in order to critically assess and remain in command of what it's being told by consultants, suppliers and other third parties.

Yes, I agree that you can't really rely on any professional and need some level of expertise to monitor them but if you are in a position to specify requirements and write your contract in such a way that the risks of vehicle selection and track maintenance fall on the contractor then the contract need not specify what bogie type the vehicle need have but swivelling bogies should be the end result if that is the most economical option to meet the requirements.

[Linto63]

What you get when you buy the wrong trams for the job. A photo by a contributor to Skyscraper City forum - the curve from the Railway colonnade into Hay St. The speed limit was set at 5 km/h on this 20 metre radius curve in order to (unsuccessfully) minimise such damage.

That section of track gas been dodgy for years. No indication that is been replaced recently, so much of the damage was probably inflicted by the CAFs that ran over the section at 10km/h.

Similar wear will eventually occur even with swivelling bogies, but only after many more years.

Have seen worse, saw a section of track recently in Melbourne at stop 57 outside Caulfield station on a curve that is greater than 90 degress where the head has been worn down much more severley.

A properly diligent commissioning agency would have acquired all this knowledge before procuring the system.

This is what happens when governments put the cleaners through an agency. While there was probably plenty of dead wood in the old Transport for NSW, often the baby is thrown out with the bathwater with those with the knowledge base leaving the building. The expert consultants that are then brought in and charge like a wounded bull, often aren't as knowledgeable as they would have us believe.

[moa999]

And it's not like Sydney is the only transit authority to select fixed bogies in the last ten years - vast majority of systems are ordered with Citadis or Urbos, and most of them have some sharp turns.

And swivelling bogies come with their own additional issues.

[tonyp]

And it's not like Sydney is the only transit authority to select fixed bogies in the last ten years - vast majority of systems are ordered with Citadis or Urbos, and most of them have some sharp turns.

And swivelling bogies come with their own additional issues.

The vast majority of tram systems in the world are European legacy systems who overall order the largest number of trams, most of those being swivelling bogie trams. They'll order fixed bogie trams if there are specific lines that are suitable for them. Most fixed bogie trams are ordered for new systems that are designed for them.

No issues with swivelling bogies. They've been around as standard on railed vehicles for over a century so are well proven. A tram with these bogies costs more upfront but they produce long term savings and better performance - such as faster services.

[GriffinRoads1]

Moral of the story: Never trust CAF.

[tonyp]

Moral of the story: Never trust CAF.

Not necessarily. They seem to be fine on lines that meet the design parameters for them, as with any fixed bogie tram.