Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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boronia
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Are these prepaid fares likely to be cheaper than the sum of the current daily caps?
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Jurassic_Joke
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

It’s Opal+, currently in trial phase where you prepay a certain amount for a subscription and add a digital Opal Card to your phones wallet.

You can read about them here - https://transportnsw.info/opalplus/subscriptions
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

The "pay as you go" fares mentioned on the Opal+ page, as expensive as it sounds, almost feels like what one could be charged if they really wanted to try to have integrated fares (bar a $3 "fee/surcharge" for ferry use) - more so with the $20/day cap ($10 for weekends and public holidays).

Question is if this actually came to fruition, how people would take to it (or not).
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boronia
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

The current Opal is very straightforward; just tap and get charged a known fare.

It will get confusing if people have to start deciding in advance "which is the best choice" for their travel.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

That was one of the reasons periodicals were removed from the system in the first place, date systems work better overall when they are simpler.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ell ... 5bidz.html

“I don’t believe any court in this state would say inciting people to destroy public property is anything but illegal,” he said.

“I’m saying to the unions, if your members deliberately break the law, I will pursue through any avenue I can for those staff members to be charged, prosecuted and sacked.”

Why is the Minister equating staff pressing a button to switch machinery to the 'off' or non-powered state with destruction?

Destruction definition: the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired

Why is the Minister directly threatening the termination of employees?

Is there an incentive or deliberate effort to under staff the railways?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

It seems a stretch to call it "destruction of property" - although in the case of switching off circuit breakers or activating controls for an emergency, you could certainly classify the conduct as interference with the Government's property. Last I checked, interfering with the systems of your employer, or sabotaging their revenue stream (THEFT) were both grounds for performance-management, if not outright termination... I've certainly heard of bus drivers being sacked for fiddling with the tickets (i.e. issuing below requested fare, cancelling tickets, skimming the float) when the figure at stake wasn't particularly great.
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jpp42
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by jpp42 »

Circuit breakers are designed for operation in an emergency and occasional switching for maintenance. They are not suited to regular daily switching; this will reduce their life expectancy and increase maintenance costs (the cost of a new breaker is not particularly high in itself, but the cost of an electrician call-out to replace it, is non-negligible). In the worst case, breakers damaged by excessive switching could be a fire risk. So I agree that from an engineering perspective, it's definitely interference and not operating the item as designed.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

In most workplaces, deliberately turning off equipment with the aim to hurt the employer's revenue stream would be grounds for dismissal I would think. This action is going to keep industrial relations lawyers in work for years over the argument whether interference in the operation of plant and equipment that would otherwise work fine during the 'withdrawal of labour' period is 'protected industrial action'.

It's not as if they are refusing to operate the equipment, they are taking deliberate action to use a maintenance function to disable the equipment.

At my work, the switchboards are locked. Only approved electrical contractors have keys. 'Normal' members of staff are not supposed to have access. It's actually considered a work-health and safety risk. And I've seen people tape up circuit breakers that kept nuisance tripping, resulting in the breaker actually exploding to clear a fault when the nuisance became a hard fault - that incident was a contributor to 'lock switchboards, only qualified personnel to access' rule. (Although the main driver was someone who entered a building's main switch room and somehow managed to get electrocuted - the fine from workover rather focused attention on the matter.)
Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

While Perrottet's announcement yesterday was that free fares would apply next week to train and metro services, Trip Planner is showing it also applies to buses, ferries and light rail.
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NissanGTR34
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by NissanGTR34 »

As of 8:00PM Trip Planner is showing $0.00 for both bus,tram and train modes ahead of the “free travel” period on Monday.
Last edited by NissanGTR34 on Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fleet Lists
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

Also ferries and light rail- so I dont think any different to the previous Linto63 post.
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Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Hatnote on Trip Planner now showing:

Free travel: From Monday 21 to Friday 25 November, you can travel for free on Sydney Metro, Sydney Trains, Airport Line and NSW Intercity services on the Opal network. Tap on or off is not required. Fares apply on all other services including bus, light rail and ferry. You must tap on and off.

Yet bus, ferry and light rail still coming up with fares of $0.00. Different to the free fare period in April when tap on was still required and the airport station surcharge remained in place.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

https://transportnsw.info/news/2022/fre ... 5-november "Free rail fares from 21 to 25 November" is the advice on Transport info - A lot of questions which you need to hover over or click on to get answers so no use copying it here. No mention of transport modes other than rail.
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743
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by 743 »

Fleet Lists wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:47 pmNo mention of transport modes other than rail.
It's the third 'FAQ' down:
https://transportnsw.info/news/2022/free-rail-fares-from-21-to-25-november wrote: Do I still need to tap on and tap off at Opal readers on other transport services?
Yes. Customers are still required to tap on and tap off as normal on all other services, including bus, ferry and light rail. The free fares period only applies to Sydney Metro, Sydney Trains and NSW TrainLink intercity services on the Opal network.
Under the Opal Terms of Use, customers are required to always carry a valid ticket. An Opal card, contactless payment card or device, or Opal Single Trip Ticket is not considered a valid ticket unless it has been tapped on. If you don’t tap on, you may be fined for travelling without a valid ticket.
Tapping on and tapping off also allows Transport to plan and adjust services to meet customer demand, and ensures we keep people safe by monitoring passenger numbers and capacity across the network.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by stupid_girl »

Please note, intermodal transfer discounts won’t apply if you don’t tap on or tap off each trip of your journey. Transfer discounts will not be provided for journeys that connect with Rail as fares will not be charged for the Rail leg.
It seems some bus+rail+bus journeys may end up costing more than it should. :evil:
Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Presumably the Trip Planner software cannot have no fares to be charged initiated by mode hence why all trips are showing as $0.00.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

stupid_girl wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:43 pm
Please note, intermodal transfer discounts won’t apply if you don’t tap on or tap off each trip of your journey. Transfer discounts will not be provided for journeys that connect with Rail as fares will not be charged for the Rail leg.
It seems some bus+rail+bus journeys may end up costing more than it should. :evil:
Please explain.
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Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

If you make a bus-train-bus transfer and your two bus trips are calculated as two separate journeys, you will pay more if your train fare is below $4.00, because this is the transfer discount you would normally earn. But you would have to be dithering around for this to happen. Nonetheless expect some whinging about why do I have to pay and he doesn't to appear in the usual places.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

I think they are assuming as I initially did the readers would be powered up and taps would be required. As you imply a rail journey that costs less than $4 (only off-peak rail journeys 0-35km) should take less than a hour so the bus component will be considered a single journey but bus and rail frequencies could conspire to make the time difference between the tap off of the 1st bus and tap on to the 2nd bus greater than 61 minutes. Given the merging of the bus components happens, the only remaining cases where the fares will be more expensive are for the 0-10km off-peak rail fare when the distance between the start of the first bus trip and the end of the bus trip are greater than 8km or when the modes top and tailing the rail component are different e.g. bus/tram.

I have to say it is kind of perverse that some commuters will end up paying more for their trips but that's our wonderful fare system. I would have liked to see what sort of spin a FAQ answer to "If rail fares are free, why am I paying more for my journey?" would have contained.
Last edited by Passenger 57 on Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by stupid_girl »

Passenger 57 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:20 pm I think they are assuming as I initially did the readers would be powered up and taps would be required. As you imply a rail journey that costs less than $4 (only off-peak rail journeys 0-35km) should take less than a hour so the bus component will be considered a single journey but bus and rail frequencies could conspire to make the time difference between the tap off of the 1st bus and tap on to the 2nd bus greater than 61 minutes. Given the merging of the bus components happens, the only remaining cases where the fares will be more expensive when are for the 0-10km off-peak rail fare when the distance between the start of the first bus trip and the end of the bus trip are greater than 8km or when the modes top and tailing the rail component are different e.g. bus/tram.

I have to say it is kind of perverse that some commuters will end up paying more for their trips but that's our wonderful fare system. I would have liked to see what sort of spin a FAQ answer to "If rail fares are free, why am I paying more for my journey?" would have contained.
35km is quite far away.
Consider the train journey between Liverpool and Central. You have to be very very lucky to complete it under an hour.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

So if you were making the Liverpool to Central trip with a 3-8km bus trio either side, normally in peak hour it would cost $9.28 while by excluding the rail fare and two transfer rebates, this week it will cost $7.86. Off peak it is $5.09 vs $5.50.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

stupid_girl wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:30 pm 35km is quite far away.
Consider the train journey between Liverpool and Central. You have to be very very lucky to complete it under an hour.
I didn't realise the train was so slow. Even if it does run on time you'd need to be very lucky for the transfers between bus and rail not to eat up the remaining few minutes of the hour. If by some miracle the ducks line up you'd pay at most $3.53 for the bus component. More realistically though, you'd only be out of pocket by 21¢ vs. the normal fare on that one.
Linto63 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:47 pm Off peak it is $5.09 vs $5.50.
$5.29 vs. $5.50.

There is a silver lining if the transfer between 2 between the last mile modes take more than an hour - you get another journey racked up against your travel reward which would allow you to hit the travel reward in just two days so only occasional travellers are out of pocket.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Four transit officers watching people come through the barriers at Town Hall this morning. Wonder how many fare evaders they caught? Would have been more productive if they did dome checks on some of the bus routes that they never bother doing.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Because it's easier work for them I guess.

I caught my first Busways service on the central coast in a while last weekend and observed quite a few school age passengers without cards requesting a free ride from the driver as "it's only down the road" or "I gotta get home" and being granted them. Why don't they go into a shop and ask for free food that way? Oh but it's only a bus ride, totally different.
Busways did have a strict policy of seeing passes before giving a concession fare, but now this is out the window now? Just let the freeloaders (thieves) on no questions asked?
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