Opal Discussion and Observations

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boronia
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

A lot of card payers also fumble around at the "payment" step. They wait until they are on the bus to start looking in their handbag, purse, wallet, etc for the Opal or bank cards. And they stand in the middle of the entrance preventing others from getting past to the other reader. Similar when getting off.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

matthewg wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:52 pm The card payers were stating their destination and then tapping wallet/phone and then taking the ticket. The cash payers were all fumbling for change at the payment step.
Although compared to the standard employed elsewhere, where the journey is calculated based on the touch on and touch off point, there's still a time loss associated with a passenger communicating a destination, the driver selecting the correct fare, and the payment being made. It makes the pandemic obsession with 'contactless' a bit redundant if you still have to speak with the driver (moot anyway in an enclosed space), not to mention the possibility of being inadvertently over or under charged.

The system sounds better-suited to locations with a flat fare, although differentiating concession users would be tricky; who would want their card details stored to identify concession? It's just another pile of sensitive data waiting for exploitation.
matthewg wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:52 pm They can keep InstaTwit or TokFarce open and just pull themselves away long enough to wave the phone in front of the reader.
"I'll just finish this message first" ... then the doors shut and all hell breaks loose :mrgreen:

On a more serious note, in QLD, University of Queensland students are trialling a system called "Odin Pass", which seems to behave how Opal+ has been described - the user (seemingly) buys a bundle for unlimited travel in a specified period. While plenty do the right thing, plenty also hold up queues while they try to fill out the origin & destination information needed to produce a valid 'ticket' to show upon boarding. While the premise has some merit, overall it just seems a great way to needlessly complicate catching public transport.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Aussies are thoughtless and will always find a way to delay unnecessarily.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

What happened to the original Opal Digital trial, has it helped inform the technological background of the Opal+ app and related development?

It would actually be good if I could use the NFC chip of my phone and use the trial app without an error screen coming up denying my use because I do not use a Samsung phone- not all Samsung phones have an NFC chip either :roll:
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

boxythingy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:05 am What happened to the original Opal Digital trial, has it helped inform the technological background of the Opal+ app and related development?
Still running.
It would actually be good if I could use the NFC chip of my phone and use the trial app without an error screen coming up denying my use because I do not use a Samsung phone- not all Samsung phones have an NFC chip either :roll:
It's now all Android and Apple IOS 13+

But I don't see the the point in going back to pre-purchasing a 'bundle' of travel unless they make it a significant discount over standard Opal which I now pay-as-I-go using a contactless banking card. My regular travel patterns (train-only commute) does not come out cheaper and I have no flexibility to change after purchase.

They have seen the trends of the uptake of 'contactless' here and in London where our software came from and realised that they are losing access to a large pot of money held in people's Opal card accounts as people shift to contactless. They need a new system to encourage upfront payments again so they have that pot of cash to play with.
There would also be a percentage of Opal+ users who miscalculate and DON"T buy a bundle that actually saves them money. It's shifting the burden back to the user to work out the best fares for their trips for a week in advance instead of the system automatically optimising the fare for you. That's 'fee' money for the Opal+ operator.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

It appears Keolis Downer Newcastle have started using their own Authorised Officers (Much like Transdev Light Rail in Sydney) to start inspecting passengers opal cards to make sure they've tapped onto the light rail, given the short nature of how far the LR travels (less than 3KM From the Interchange to Newcastle Beach + Return) most people aren't probably bothered about tapping on, I see plenty of commuters just walk straight onto the light rail.

Funny enough I was on a tram the other day where apparently a male commuter had attempted to tap on with a "blocked opal card" the Keolis Downer AO's (Two Female Inspectors) sat down to speak to the guy and informed him he'd tried to tap on with a blocked card, the tram was shortly pulling up to it's next stop and the guy without saying a word just got up and walked out of the tram into the distance, obviously for safety reasons the AO's wouldn't be going after the guy and they both just looked at each other and went "Oh is that a walk-off?".
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Opal+ sounds like pre planed pre booked pre paid public transport travel
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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I dont understand.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:18 am It appears Keolis Downer Newcastle have started using their own Authorised Officers (Much like Transdev Light Rail in Sydney) to start inspecting passengers opal cards to make sure they've tapped onto the light rail, given the short nature of how far the LR travels (less than 3KM From the Interchange to Newcastle Beach + Return) most people aren't probably bothered about tapping on, I see plenty of commuters just walk straight onto the light rail.

Funny enough I was on a tram the other day where apparently a male commuter had attempted to tap on with a "blocked opal card" the Keolis Downer AO's (Two Female Inspectors) sat down to speak to the guy and informed him he'd tried to tap on with a blocked card, the tram was shortly pulling up to it's next stop and the guy without saying a word just got up and walked out of the tram into the distance, obviously for safety reasons the AO's wouldn't be going after the guy and they both just looked at each other and went "Oh is that a walk-off?".
AFIK, the AOs have no legal powers to detain people or even demand identification. Most serial fare evaders are aware of this.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

matthewg wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:06 am
boxythingy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:05 am What happened to the original Opal Digital trial, has it helped inform the technological background of the Opal+ app and related development?
Still running.
According to TfNSW the Opal digital trial ended on December 12, 2021.

I would imagine that much of the previously developed parts of Opal Connect, the back end used for Opal digital and On-demand, could have helped "inform" development if are not actually being reused. I struggle to understand what $567.9 million is being spent on though.
But I don't see the the point in going back to pre-purchasing a 'bundle' of travel unless they make it a significant discount over standard Opal which I now pay-as-I-go using a contactless banking card.
Yes, the journey bundle discounts are particularly pathetic compared to Opal+ PAYG. However given that they scale with both frequency and the distance travelled one cannot hope for too much when the 'Unlimited Anytime' subscription only offers a 6% discount over the Opal cap. When first launched there was no discount at all on 'Unlimited anytime' and no discount at all on the 2 journey bundle for travel under 20km. Now you only need 2 journeys over 10kms. The 'Unlimited Weekender' has a sufficient discount to cover the limited risk of not using it on Sunday if purchased on the Saturday.

Once the Opal weekly cap increases beyond $50 and in turn the cost of the 'Unlimited Anytime" subscription there will be scope to offer somewhat deeper discounts here and increasing the costs of PAYG fares to IPART allowed maximums to create the discount will be another option that can be utilised.
My regular travel patterns (train-only commute) does not come out cheaper and I have no flexibility to change after purchase.
Generally speaking, the new pricing is mainly but not always a win for multi-mode travellers but there are wins for single mode travellers here and there because of differing fare bands. For train travellers it appears that the distance calculation may have shifted to straight line distance with the CBD gateway increment removed. Off-peak ferry travellers see reduced fares in all fare bands.

They have seen the trends of the uptake of 'contactless' here and in London where our software came from and realised that they are losing access to a large pot of money held in people's Opal card accounts as people shift to contactless. They need a new system to encourage upfront payments again so they have that pot of cash to play with.
I don't think that's the main motivation for the project but it certainly is an added win and may have a corrupting influence on the outcome. Hopefully, the PAYG side of Opal+ will have a weekly and weekend cap added to it before it becomes the only choice. I see the PAYG side of Opal+ offering some promise simply because it offers a sensible basis of doing multi-mode fare integration. I am disappointed to see that short distance single mode bus travellers are the most heavily slugged which seems a recurring theme in NSW fare system changes. More finely grained fare bands would address that but I doubt that can occur while journey bundles subscriptions are still offered. Personally, I would scrap all the subscriptions and allow a week to start on any day of the week. IPART's previously proposed 10 most expensive fares per week could also be introduced once back end systems are processing the rules. Unfortunately, I fear the subscription thing might be hard to kill off given the thinking that led to this, the alliances with private operators and as you point out the "free money".
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:01 pmPersonally, I would scrap all the subscriptions and allow a week to start on any day of the week. IPART's previously proposed 10 most expensive fares per week could also be introduced once back end systems are processing the rules. Unfortunately, I fear the subscription thing might be hard to kill off given the thinking that led to this, the alliances with private operators and as you point out the "free money".
While the idea of starting the "week" on any given day sounds good (a-la the old TravelPasses - at least the magstripe ones that started on first use), in a system like Opal, how do you decide when that is, especially if you travel 7 days a week (so there is no "gap" between any two seven day periods)?

Short of you having to manually select that day somehow (read: more logic required), I suspect this is why the Monday to Sunday week is chosen as it is the simplest, although a "pass" system - if it is anything like Melbourne's - would be from the first use after purchase, so that option would be open I suppose.
Otherwise if you had the most expensive 10 journeys per week, that logic might require it be fixed for a Monday to Sunday week.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:36 pm On a more serious note, in QLD, University of Queensland students are trialling a system called "Odin Pass", which seems to behave how Opal+ has been described - the user (seemingly) buys a bundle for unlimited travel in a specified period. While plenty do the right thing, plenty also hold up queues while they try to fill out the origin & destination information needed to produce a valid 'ticket' to show upon boarding. While the premise has some merit, overall it just seems a great way to needlessly complicate catching public transport.
I wonder if there is a counterfeit ticket app yet? This TranLink advice to operators and stakeholders and response from a driver both via the same Reddit thread suggests that a counterfeit app is fairly trivial and currently undetectable by barrier staff. One would hope the app has other features that allow an RPO to check whether the holder of the app has a valid subscription but I couldn't find anything in the EULA that compels a user to hand over their phone to an RPO.

Opal+ would be using NFC so it would be a matter of tapping on and off for public transport usage whether or not a subscription is in effect. Given the Go Card has no weekly cap, Odin Pass is a lot more financially compelling than the mere 6% Opal+ offers over the weekly Opal cap. The only better deal that Opal+ offers is a weekend subscription. Odin Pass does currently appear to be a major pain in the ass with its requirement to generate a ticket prior to each journey. Opal+ offers better pricing for multi-modal trips but that not really a challenge because Opal is so poor about that. Probably the only reason Opal originally had a weekly cap as the original '8 journeys then free' travel reward didn't work for those who hit the daily cap with a single journey.

I can't see the Odin Pass stacking up financially at the current pricing. The only way to make it revenue neutral is for some people to pay more than they are now while others pay less. Opal+ does not rely on subscriptions alone which don't offer much of a discount and in general makes single mode trips more expensive than multi-mode trips and therefore sustainable. It also offer PAYG pricing which IMO is probably a better idea than purchasing bundles of N journeys.

The only questions in my mind about these MaaS trials apart from how gullible people are, are the revenue flows between the external transport providers and the transit authority which are likely to remain commercial in confidence.

Anyway, while looking around for more information on the Odin Pass I came across a 236 page report about a Sydney Maas trial involving IAG employees. Some points from the executive summary:
  • PAYG by itself is unlikely to make a difference in respect of sustainable outcomes. It is bundle
    subscribers that decrease their car usage and that are more interested in continuing than PAYG
    subscribers.
  • Without a (monetary) incentive, travellers appear to see very little value in MaaS in the presence
    of existing apps that are improving all the time (such as Opal Connect, Apple Pay, Google Pay,
    and improved technical platforms that facilitate payment in addition to searching and planning)
    and hence one may not get enough buy-in to make a currently niche product scalable.
  • The trial was too short to be able to test the business case, and hence we could not find evidence
    of a sustainable business model without subsidy. Commercial claims to date have not been
    proven. We suggest that profitability goes hand-in-hand with scalability and without this, MaaS
    is unlikely to take off unless it is driven by financial support from government or other non-
    mobility sources.
  • While MaaS bundles themselves might not be profitable, once sustainability improvements are
    priced in, they might offer a viable (non-commercial) business model.
Last edited by Passenger 57 on Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:38 pm Given the Go Card has no weekly cap, Odin Pass is a lot more financially compelling than the mere 6% Opal+ offers over the weekly Opal cap.
8 journeys then half-price is as good as it gets
Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:38 pm I can't see the Odin Pass stacking up financially at the current pricing. The only way to make it revenue neutral is for some people to pay more than they are now while others pay less. Opal+ does not rely on subscriptions alone which don't offer much of a discount and in general makes single mode trips more expensive than multi-mode trips and therefore sustainable. It also offer PAYG pricing which IMO is probably a better idea than purchasing bundles of N journeys.

The only questions in my mind about these MaaS trials apart from how gullible people are the revenue flows between the external transport providers and the transit authority which are likely to remain commercial in confidence.
Two very good points. I find the concept of (potentially) introducing profit-seeking middle-men into a system that is already subsidised quite heavily to be repugnant to the spirit of "MaaS".
Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:38 pm PAYG by itself is unlikely to make a difference in respect of sustainable outcomes. It is bundle
subscribers that decrease their car usage and that are more interested in continuing than PAYG
subscribers.
These MaaS trials could be an interesting experiment as to the price sensitivity of public transport users. However, having to negotiate "fare bundles", calculate which one will save you money, not cost more, on top of the pre-existing issues passengers face (mode, timetables, transfers, journey time) may be a bridge too far. Perth capped fares to $5 in January; there was a allegedly about a 10% blip in patronage, although I'm not sure how many percent the subsidy increased by. Both Adelaide and Darwin pursue a regime of cheap, flat fares (with the option of periodicals), yet patronage seems to be declining in both cities. So it would seem that people aren't necessarily after a cheap, or even "free" service, they actually want a decent service to begin with! This may also explain why the likes of Uber can get away with their surge-pricing systems.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

pgt wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:36 pm While the idea of starting the "week" on any given day sounds good (a-la the old TravelPasses - at least the magstripe ones that started on first use), in a system like Opal, how do you decide when that is, especially if you travel 7 days a week (so there is no "gap" between any two seven day periods)?
My idea is that the start of the week rolls around until you hit a total of N journeys in a previous 7 day window including the current day. At that point, the start of the week is locked and you get discounts applied for the remainder of the 7 days. Once that week is over, the window is reduced to the current day and stays at that size until there is a day with a journey after which it increases in size by one day for the following 6 days before the start of the week starts moving again. If there is a gap of 7 days between journeys the window resets back to a single day.
Short of you having to manually select that day somehow (read: more logic required), I suspect this is why the Monday to Sunday week is chosen as it is the simplest,
Simplicity is needed for readers, less so with a back end, but it is important the system is simple to understand.
although a "pass" system - if it is anything like Melbourne's - would be from the first use after purchase, so that option would be open I suppose.
Passes can be approximated by allowing customers to reset the window in my proposal above. Once reset discounts are forfeited for any remainder of a 7 day period. Passes have the advantage that they look forward allowing a consumer to choose the 7 day period that is most advantageous to them rather than that being influenced by history. As an alternative to allowing window reset a cluey customer could just use another card untainted by usage within the 7 day window to achieve the same effect. There could be usage discounts rolling over a longer period to encourage people to use the same card.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:10 am These MaaS trials could be an interesting experiment as to the price sensitivity of public transport users.
IPART would claim they know but there is no substitute for real world experimentation. Opal+ seems more realisticly priced than Odin Pass. While I think the N journey subscriptions are pointless, I'm curious to know how the add-ons and perks drive take up as they can only be accessed via subscription. In that context, its a bit disappointing that some subscriptions are pretty safe bets. It would be impressive if they could manage integration to the level of changing a taxi booking if the public transport component was running late (or alternatively delaying the order until some point in the journey was reached while providing reasonable order lead time.)
However, having to negotiate "fare bundles", calculate which one will save you money, not cost more, on top of the pre-existing issues passengers face (mode, timetables, transfers, journey time) may be a bridge too far.
Historically, only a certain percentage were prepared to make an effort to prepay. Queuing for tickets was a powerful incentive for many. And the majority of customers opted for weekly passes or a Travel Ten because anything else was too hard or too much risk. There is certainly less friction with Opal but I find it difficult to believe claims that Opal made people significantly more willing to use public transport.
Perth capped fares to $5 in January; there was a allegedly about a 10% blip in patronage, although I'm not sure how many percent the subsidy increased by. Both Adelaide and Darwin pursue a regime of cheap, flat fares (with the option of periodicals), yet patronage seems to be declining in both cities. So it would seem that people aren't necessarily after a cheap, or even "free" service, they actually want a decent service to begin with!
Absolutely. For those with a car the incremental cost of a short trip is very low. I chose to walk 3.6km the other day because the turn up and go aspect of that was much more attractive than the earlier departure and half hour journey time it would have involved with 2 buses via public transport, one of them low frequency and the other one likely packed at least in one direction. It did have the downside of me being somewhat sweaty on arrival but thankfully I was in a position to be able to change my shirt and freshen myself. (Had I asked about the dress code I wouldn't have bothered.) Many years ago this would have been a single more direct bus trip with higher off-peak frequency that would have arrived close to that particular destination. A 2nd bus trip would be required to eliminate 0.5km of walking (uphill) which would be avoided on anything other than a weekly or periodical.

This may also explain why the likes of Uber can get away with their surge-pricing systems.
As simple as demand exceeding supply. Some people won't (or can't) catch public transport at any price. For a large enough group travelling a shorter distance ride share might actually be cheaper.

Somewhat telling that Uber is not participating in the Opal+ trial while their best known competitors are.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by TheOpalUser »

TheOpalUser wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:06 am
Linto63 wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:16 pm IIRC Opal cards expire after 9 years. With the first trial commencing in December 2012, this will begin to take effect later this year. Hope there is a plan to communicate this.
https://transportnsw.info/document/2114 ... of-use.pdf
You will know when an Opal Card is about to expire as a card expiration message will appear on the reader display when you tap on an Opal Card Reader during the 30 day period prior to Planned Expiry
&
Forfeiture of Opal Card Balance: If you have a registered, reloadable Opal Card, you can apply for a transfer or refund of your Opal Card Balance in accordance with clause 75 for a period of up to 90 days after the date of cancellation or expiration of the Opal Card. If you do not do so, or you are not entitled to a refund in accordance with the Opal Refund and Balance Transfer Policy, you will forfeit the Opal Card Balance of that cancelled or expired Opal Card to us.

Looks like this has been extended to 11 years - in the T&Cs dated 19 August 2022.
https://transportnsw.info/document/2114 ... of-use.pdf
Card Expiration: An Opal Card will expire:
a) in the case of a reloadable Opal Card – 11 years; or
b) in the case of a Free Opal Card - 5 years,
after the date it is initialised (which will be earlier than the date you received or first used the Opal Card) (Planned Expiry).
Haven't used card #273 for months, but when I tapped on at the start of the year, got an expiry date of 2/12/23
https://twitter.com/TheOpalUser/status/ ... 4649810946
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Explains why my card delivered in December 2013 still hasn't flashed up with an expiry date message, 4,500 trips and still going strong. To avoid the casual user being caught out by the 30 day rule, perhaps top up machines and statements should show a card's expiry date as they do in Queensland and Victoria?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

I wonder how many people even bother to read the screen when they tap.

On light rail, it's a struggle to see the green light let alone the screens.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

Expiry is dependant on when it is initialised. The longer it stays in a shop, the shorter its remaining life in service once sold.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

What do you call initialisation? There is some done when a card is sold from a retail outlet. I believe I've seen receipts that have $0.00 as an issue fee so it makes sense that system would be designed in such a way that without initialisation and collection of the issue fee that the card would be useless. I vaguely recall some report where someone managed to get a card bypassing the normal sales process and had an issue at readers despite an online top-up. I don't if they managed to fix that with a machine top up. I presume the ones without credit that reportedly can be issued by station masters would have already undergone the initialisation process that retail shops and I presume the Opal mail order department use. Do you perhaps mean some initialisation step that takes place when the card is manufactured? I'm not sure I see the benefit of recording a date then unless it results it less card storage being consumed then a date being recorded by the customer themselves.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by 1whoknows »

Gee that 30 day warning will be really helpful to an opal holding interstater.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Passenger 57 wrote: What do you call initialisation?
Probably the date it leaves TfNSW for the retailer. My go card in Queensland was initiated (i.e. 10 years before the expiry date) a few months before I purchased it.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Randomness »

1whoknows wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:09 am Gee that 30 day warning will be really helpful to an opal holding interstater.
Plus those with hundreds on their cards, imagine trying to burn that down
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Get a new card, register both of them, and transfer outstanding balance from old to new.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

A general warning against buying Opal cards off E-commerce hubs such as Ebay, Gumtree, Facebook marketplace, dark web etc

https://transportnsw.info/news/2023/onl ... -retailers
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